Is Logic True?

[Nahm]

@mandyjw Sneaky sob’s aren’t they....”Happy Meal”.  F’ing clowns indeed. 

[mandyjw]

@Nahm There's nothing more horrifying than Ronald McDonald.

[Nahm]

@mandyjw Here’s one for ya if you’re in the mood...it’ll take you straight through if you realize it....why do people over eat? 

[mandyjw]

@Nahm Because they don't feel loved. 

[Shadowraix]

@tsuki You are not actually looking at what I am trying to say. We can just go in circles with the illusion and duality stuff. It's not helpful. 

I'm pointing to the more life pragmatic perspective. The illusions that aid in the illusion. 

Edited April 27, 2019 by Shadowraix

[tsuki]

1 hour ago, Shadowraix said:

@tsuki You are not actually looking at what I am trying to say. We can just go in circles with the illusion and duality stuff. It's not helpful. 

Okay, will you let me be your student for a while?
Will you write something more about that so that I can find connection to what I experience?

[Truth Addict]

@Leo Gura

Thank you Leo ❤️

It was all great until I read the word "enlightenment", and then the narrative tried to claim it, guess I'm not there yet.

I actually became aware of that insight almost two or three months ago, Nahm helped me with it, but I keep forgetting.

I also feel like enlightenment must be meaningless, because that is the gateless gate, it means that everything is meaningless including that insight itself.

But even though I have realised that, it's still hard to disidentify from illusion.

I mean the old conditioned mind does not melt away instantly with this realisation, even if I keep that insight in mind all the time, I can still get deluded, I can still trick myself.

I realise now how powerful illusion is, and how my life is built upon illusion, because if I removed all of my illusions then my life would literally end.

I can't get rid of all of my illusions even if I want to.

I mean I even delude myself in order to eat food and drink water, let alone all the social conditioning.

Again, thank you Leo for all the wonderful work you've done, life is getting better and more amazing everyday.

@tsuki ❤️

[Truth Addict]

3 hours ago, Nahm said:

@mandyjw why do people over eat? 

Plenty of food + plenty of time + plenty of problems.

Overeating = all problems solved 

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

But even though I have realised that, it's still hard to disidentify from illusion.

You ain't realized shit yet.

When true realization occurs, disidentification is not hard. It is automatic.

It's not a matter of easy or hard. It's a matter of being conscious or not.

Be careful about tricking yourself that you already understand enlightenment. Not even close. Your ideas of it are not it at all and hardly worth anything.

The ego-mind is going to try to turn enlightenment into a conceptual thing in order to keep itself at a safe distance from actual enlightenment. It's extremely sneaky. Almost devilish you might say

[Truth Addict]

@Leo Gura

That's what I need to hear ❤️

Although disidentification happens automatically for me, but I still find it slow and not enough.

I am very careful about this, I don't want to become enlightened, I want to realise Absolute Truth on a cellular level.

[oMarcos]

14 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Actually, all symbols are just territory. There are maps proper. A map is what you get when you confuse part of the territory for another part of the territory.

To make this real clear: if you draw a map of Florida in the sand on a beach in Florida, your map is literally Florida. There isn't a map + Florida. There is only Florida, which includes within it a smaller version of itself drawn in the sand. So what it means for Florida to be Florida is that is has drawings of itself within itself.

Notice the fractal nature of how this works.

Now expand this out to reality itself. A thought/image/symbol of reality is itself a part of reality. Such that all you have in the end is reality. All you have is the territory. So in fact: the map is the territory!

Strange loops are not a bug here, they are a feature. They arise due to the self-reference problem: when you have only one thing in existence, how can it point to itself? There cannot be a duality between map/territory. Symbols cannot stand outside reality because they are within reality and because there is nothing outside reality. Inside and outside are of course one.

I can see how this must relate with yantras...

[Shadowraix]

3 hours ago, tsuki said:

Okay, will you let me be your student for a while?
Will you write something more about that so that I can find connection to what I experience?

Look at the life you and everybody experiences. Everyday we rely on things like consistency. All of science relies of observation and for that experience to always happen under the same occurrences. 

Yes if you look past all of that you can see all of the mental framework gymnastics involved and especially how one can get too involved with it. But these mental tools for mapping are incredibly useful. Ask how does this even work? The connection between concept and direct experience. 

Illusions help navigate illusions no? 

[lmfao]

@123456789 To verify logic is true you would have to use something other than logic. So what can you do? 

[Shadowraix]

22 minutes ago, lmfao said:

@123456789 To verify logic is true you would have to use something other than logic. So what can you do? 

Compare it to direct experience. Which it then falls flat. ? Logic only works on something that can follow the rules 

[Aeris]

On 26/04/2019 at 8:06 PM, Leo Gura said:

Firstly, scientific models are NOT based on formal logic. Again, "formal logic" is a loaded word. There are an infinite number of different formal logics. So which one are you gonna base your scientific model on? They all contradict each other. You must do empirical research to determine whether your logic squares with reality. Often times it won't!

In quantum mechanics particles do not follow Aristotelian binary logic. So physics has long ago debunked the naive notion that reality follows binary logic.

The question of What is science? and How come science works? is a very tricky one. It takes decades of study and contemplation to understand it.

In short, scientific models contain very partial and limited relative truths. They are true only under very very narrow circumstances and contexts. Just because some aspects of reality are predictable does not mean that reality is logical. In fact it tends to work the other way around: Whatever humans call "logical" is however reality happens to behave in contexts which are relevant to humans. For example, if chairs had a habit of turning spontaneously into cats whenever you sat on them, your mind would grow accustomed to that behavior and call it "logical".

In practice, what you call "logical" is just whatever reality happens to do around you. If everyone you knew walked around naked on the street, you'd eventually start calling that logical. Because in fact it is impossible to distinguish between logical and illogical things. That is a matter of relative perspective. What's logical to me is not logical to you, and vice versa. Or to put it another way, YOU are the sole arbiter of what counts as logical. Whatever you insist is logical, becomes logical (for you). Whatever you insist is illogical becomes illogical (for you). Logic has no normative power. So if someone wants to be "illogical", they are free to do so and no amount of reasoning, argumentation, or evidence will convince them otherwise. Because they are only "illogical" relative to your judgment of them. They are not illogical in any absolute sense.

There actually exists no standard to determine what counts as logical. It must be this way because reality is nondual and empty/groundless. Anyone who tries to ground reality in logic will fail. This was rigorously demonstrated back in the early 20th century. Logical positivism and the attempt to formalize reality with a finite system of symbols failed spectacularly. As it should have. Reality is not quantifiable or formalizable.

I told this years ago to my brother. Very clean here

[lmfao]

@Shadowraix Yeah there's basically no adequate way to convey direct experience so I just avoid using it sometimes because people won't get what you're saying

 

 

[Shadowraix]

@lmfao by the way that's kaiki from monogatari right? Love that anime. 

[lmfao]

@Shadowraix yessssssssss top tier anime. 

[now is forever]

20 hours ago, tsuki said:

And I appreciate that you asked.

I explained a map that maps maps, and Leo explained a territory that maps territory .
They are the same thing, really.

the difference is you can’t get lost in a map but you can get lost in a territory. 

[Shadowraix]

@lmfao Definitely it's awesome someone else knows it?