The opposite of neti neti.

[mandyjw]

This is sort of a variation on my thoughts in yesterday's post about the difference between mockery and spiritual teachings. 

You are the dog crap on your shoe. 

You are the janitor.

You are the President.

You are your body.

You are dead.

You are alive.

You are beautiful.

You are ugly.

You are a banana.

You are Big Bird. 

You are the color yellow.

You are the color purple.

You are colorless. 

Don't you have to do this sort of thing at the same time as you say "not this, not this" ?

Because you ARE, you ARE it all. 

Isn't that nihilsm when we say neti neti and don't also bask in the beauty of everything and infinite abundance? 

[Forestluv]

Yes. Nothing = Everything ?

[Mu_]

This is my theory, its important sometimes for a student to understand something as "absolutely so" for a while, since the benefits that come with this, is that a much higher ingraining effect on the psyche can take place.  Most if not all psychies to begin with are believing a "absolutely so" that is generally not fully benefiting them, and having them acclimate, change and then live from a new vantage point for a period of time can be very healing in letting them let go of their previous harming tendencies,  and mind sets that are more fixed and limiting.

Neti Neti is one of these and is also not false nor true, which is yet another developing and enveloping perspective that can come in "development".  Which if we want to continue with the theme that I've started, "development", a word that for most minds triggers an idea of time and a taking placeness over a experiential length of some sort, is a Nowness thing that only appears to take place in a experience of time (another awaking perspective).  However this "Nowness" and "Time Experience" and  "Developments that take place" are both true and not reducing of the other, since again all thats being shared about here is of Source/God and Source/God is all there is, it is those things and doesn't reduce those things to "only god exists" and "those other understandings/perspectives/life experiences" aren't real. (another awakened understanding and something a lot of people on this forum are stuck in).

Edited April 26, 2019 by Mu_

[Anirban657]

Please write a book if you get enlightened with this method@mandyjw

[Forestluv]

@Mu_ Dang, that’s some really nice inter-connection of spiritual dots into a more holistic view ? 

To perhaps connect one more dot. . . as we develop to a “deeper level” there is the idea/experience that it is ungrounded. The mind-body has dug deeper than it’s previous grounded state and now feels ungrounded. With continued contemplation, practice and integration things start to feel grounded at this deeper level.  It has matured and begun to be embodied. Yet, as we continue to dig deeper, things can feel ungrounded again. . . .

The above is an over simplified idea of linear development - it is often a “back-and-forth” experience of grounding-ungrounding through a construct of a timeline/storyline. . .

I’m curious if this idea of grounding may relate to what you are pointing to as “absolutely so” in your first paragraph. Could “absolutely so” provide a sense of grounding for a mind-body?

For example, when I got my first good glimpses of nonduality, it was extremely destabilizing and I felt very ungrounded. I gradually entered a mindset that nonduality is “absolutely so” and tried to speak from a strictly nondual perspective (whatever my mind felt/thought that was). This provided a sense of grounding. Yet then awareness arose:  “Wait a minute, there is more to it than this” and insights about the relationship between nonduality and duality arose. Things felt very ungrounded again since I had just gotten grounded in embracing nonduality as “absolutely so” .

[mandyjw]

@Mu_ It's ok to believe that you everything as long as you aren't selective. The ego picks and choose which it think it is and isn't. Believing that you are everything and believing you are nothing is the same thing. Some people may find it easier to believe that they are nothing and to believe that they are everything because believing that you are everything gets, really tricky. The mind gets attached and repulsed and it wants to pick and choose. 

Believing that you are nothing is a great way to erase attachment and start with a blank slate. But then you have to go on with your life and interact with things. It's important to understand and experience both as a spiritual practice. 

One thing I do a lot while running is I'll get stuck no a thought of judgement and I'll say one way or another "I'm not that." but then I lose myself in something I AM. Like my breath or a tree along the way. That's what's so beautiful about life and consciousness, it's all here for us to experience, in its fullness indiscriminately. 

[Truth Addict]

@mandyjw

I don't know, I believe there has to be some hidden wisdom in taking the other approach, perhaps because the ego-mind does not want to accept that it doesn't exist.

Usually most people have very big egos, and they need to deconstruct them before they can see the truth, still, some people have little egos that need more construction, and so this approach can be helpful to them.

(I'm just guessing).

[Rilles]

First you look at what you aren’t, then you can see that you are in fact everything. But you have to become nothing to become everything. 

[Mu_]

1 hour ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Mu_ Dang, that’s some really nice inter-connection of spiritual dots into a more holistic view ? 

To perhaps connect one more dot. . . as we develop to a “deeper level” there is the idea/experience that it is ungrounded. The mind-body has dug deeper than it’s previous grounded state and now feels ungrounded. With continued contemplation, practice and integration things start to feel grounded at this deeper level.  It has matured and begun to be embodied. Yet, as we continue to dig deeper, things can feel ungrounded again. . . .

The above is an over simplified idea of linear development - it is often a “back-and-forth” experience of grounding-ungrounding through a construct of a timeline/storyline. . .

I’m curious if this idea of grounding may relate to what you are pointing to as “absolutely so” in your first paragraph. Could “absolutely so” provide a sense of grounding for a mind-body?

For example, when I got my first good glimpses of nonduality, it was extremely destabilizing and I felt very ungrounded. I gradually entered a mindset that nonduality is “absolutely so” and tried to speak from a strictly nondual perspective (whatever my mind felt/thought that was). This provided a sense of grounding. Yet then awareness arose:  “Wait a minute, there is more to it than this” and insights about the relationship between nonduality and duality arose. Things felt very ungrounded again since I had just gotten grounded in embracing nonduality as “absolutely so” .

I like what you are bringing into the picture about "grounded/ungrounded" its something I'll have to consider in future interactions.  But yes "absolutely so's" provide grounding, perhaps because of the nature of the humans mind/bodys development and ease certainty provides it.  This is neither a good or bad thing, just what is, grounding is a pleasant experience one needent try to reject in hopes of getting to those higher, flowy expanding, minding blowing times, nor hold onto in fear that they will lose something they've gained, finally gotten to or understood (even if these do and will happen as its "human" to greater and lesser degree's, like in death of a loved one or loss of ones useful capacities in contributing in ways they no longer could due to a brain injury or loss of a arm).

 

From my own experience, it seems as though through so many grounded ungrounded, grounded, ungrounded, that chaos, change, stability chaos change stability became a "grounded" you could say, and the nature of "grounded" is perhaps less suffering, stability, ease in the same prior chaos, change, stability.

 

But there is also infinite subtley in this to, since chaos, change, stability, and ones "absolutely so" are also/are/and more, dependent on mind/yourself/itself and how one/it/you, relates to/see's such/IS (again not negating, but are intertwined/are/and more).

Hmm as I write this I see the need for a new language to communicate multiplicity at once......thats what the also/are/and more is indicating.

Edited April 26, 2019 by Mu_

[Aakash]

@Mu_ I actually thought that you represented it quite good, it gave me a deeper understanding of neti-neti, thats exactly how it feels in order when you are performing it, the biggest problem is when you will reach a grounding of absolutely so, to say neti-neti too, for example, i've only managed to get to a feeling of "i", which i've now cancelled out and are back to ungrounded ground so as a seeker, how do i get to the next ground which like you said is based on my psychologically factors as a human, where i think ground is next

20 minutes ago, Mu_ said:

But there is also infinite subtley in this to, since chaos, change, stability, and ones "absolutely so" are also/are/and more, dependent on mind/yourself/itself and how one/it/you, relates to/see's such/IS (again not negating, but are intertwined/are/and more).

 

[Forestluv]

58 minutes ago, Mu_ said:

But there is also infinite subtley in this to, since chaos, change, stability, and ones "absolutely so" are also/are/and more, dependent on mind/yourself/itself and how one/it/you, relates to/see's such/IS (again not negating, but are intertwined/are/and more).

Ahhh, the plot thickens. . .  ? 

This also brings to mind the inter-connectives of a mind-body relating to it’s environment and the sensation of “absolutely so”. We are all like neurotransmitters to each other and it gets tricky assigning an “absolutely so” mindset to an individual mind - it is all inter-twined in an amazing dance. 

[Mu_]

19 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Ahhh, the plot thikens. . .  ? 

This also brings to mind the inter-connectives of a mind-body relating to it’s environment and the sensation of “absolutely so”. We are all like neurotransmitters to each other and it gets tricky assigning an “absolutely so” mindset to an individual mind - it is all inter-twined in an amazing dance. 

I dont know why but my sense for you is that you may find it useful to let go of connecting, since honestly "what" is there to connect?

[Forestluv]

8 minutes ago, Mu_ said:

I dont know why but my sense for you is that you may find it useful to let go of connecting, since honestly "what" is there to connect?

Sure, it all deconstructs to nothing. When my mind is engaged in deconstructing and constructing, it likes to draw connections and undraw connections. For example, when my mind-body is engaged in yin-yoga, there is deconstructing/disconnection. A dissolving of distinctions into pure beingness. There are no concepts of “grounding”, “absolute”, “relative”, “my hips”, “this pain is connected to my hips” etc. There is nonconceptual beingness.

My mind-body seems likes deep states of non-conceptual beingness, conceptual-beingness and mixtures of the two. It’s when the mind-body becomes attached / identified to any state or concept in which distress in which flow is disrupted. Without attachment/identification it is fluid - it appears then disappears. Connects and deconnects. Constantly changing in a beautifully flowing formless form. 

Yet then again, maybe not. That’s just what’s occurring in my mind right now. In an hour, who knows what will arise?

[Jkris]

@Anirban657 ,???

[Mu_]

59 minutes ago, Aakash said:

@Mu_ I actually thought that you represented it quite good, it gave me a deeper understanding of neti-neti, thats exactly how it feels in order when you are performing it, the biggest problem is when you will reach a grounding of absolutely so, to say neti-neti too, for example, i've only managed to get to a feeling of "i", which i've now cancelled out and are back to ungrounded ground so as a seeker, how do i get to the next ground which like you said is based on my psychologically factors as a human, where i think ground is next

 

Its not so direct as your hoping.  While I talked about these things in some what of a linear fashion they don't always unfold that way.  So let go of "next step", "You" "Are".  Drop solving, let it come and go.  I read your recent returning post and think its great that you saw so much into "not needing" in its many ways, keep letting those be seen through, love and care and consider in your life.  If you really need to get your finances taken care, really get it taken care of, I know you mentioned something like this before.

 

Edited April 26, 2019 by Mu_

[Mu_]

9 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Sure, it all deconstructs to nothing. When my mind is engaged in deconstructing and constructing, it likes to draw connections and undraw connections. For example, when my mind-body is engaged in yin-yoga, there is deconstructing/disconnection. A dissolving of distinctions into pure beingness. There are no concepts of “grounding”, “absolute”, “relative”, “my hips”, “this pain is connected to my hips” etc. There is nonconceptual beingness.

My mind-body seems likes deep states of non-conceptual beingness, conceptual-beingness and mixtures of the two. It’s when the mind-body becomes attached / identified to any state or concept in which distress in which flow is disrupted. Without attachment/identification it is fluid - it appears then disappears. Connects and deconnects. Constantly changing in a beautifully flowing formless form. 

Yet then again, maybe not. That’s just what’s occurring in my mind right now. In an hour, who knows what will arise?

Ya who knows....

[mandyjw]

I just went running and meditated on this some more. 

It's colder than I thought, the wind is blowing cold rain on my face, thoughts like I didn't dress for this, or feeling pained come up and I disidentify and I become the rain too and it feels good.

So I know how to disidentify but i also identify with things outside me. Maybe this is a stage, or maybe it's it, I don't know. 

A car goes by me too fast, I feel annoyance, and I remind myself that I am that car, i am impatient and inconsiderate of others in my impatience sometimes. 

I try to experience everything, my body, my breath, what I'm seeing, what I'm hearing, the sound of the wind. I can narrow in my focus on one and intensify it. I can't focus on nothing. Coming back to nothing breaks my focus but it immediately goes somewhere else, within sensing and feeling. 

I only use not this not this with thoughts, never sensations or feelings. With those I go with the flow because disidentifying puts me BACK into thinking. 

 

[Forestluv]

23 minutes ago, Mu_ said:

Ya who knows....

Sometimes I laugh at the absurdity of it all 

[Forestluv]

@mandyjw Sounds like a good run. There is a special combination with running, contemplation and beingness. It can be a form of meditation 

[Mu_]

1 hour ago, Serotoninluv said:

Sometimes I laugh at the absurdity of it all 

That’s awesome, ya me to.