No 'do-er'...

[Paul92]

Okay, so, I've been trying to take some steps to get back on track. Any advice on the following would be hugely appreciated. 

I've started meditating as best as I can in a morning and at night. In a morning anything between 30-40 mins and same at night before bed. I've been trying to just follow my breathing, but I'm finding this very difficult. I can do a few inhales/exhales and then I'm thinking about something again. Is watching the breathe really the best method? 

Also, the whole thing about there being no 'you'. Like, there is no 'Paul' doing what I think I'm doing. I have zero control over anything and the thing to do is just lose attachment to what is happening and just watch it. 

This is something I find Mooji really tries to drill home. 

However, Im confused by it. Because he encourages people, in all situations, to remain quiet and observe. Isn't that a choice within itself? 

If we have zero control over anything, how do we make the choice to come here, offer advise to others, and encourage them to make changes? 

I appreciate there is no 'Paul' in my head pulling the strings. Whatever I am, doesn't have a name exactly. But do I have any say over anything? 

I was feeling better yesterday. I went into work, had a laugh with colleagues. I tried to stay present (is this a choice?) and felt slightly better about everything. I thought I'll just go with the flow and not get annoyed about anything. I'll accept whatever comes. 

So yeh, who is doing the accepting? To accept what is, is that a choice I can make? Or is it something else doing it? 

Thank you. 

 

[Waken]

Realising there is no you, is not much of an intellectual thing, as it is a seeing or realisation based on seeing. If you want to get there is no you, best thing is to look for this you. A good way to look is investigating your own statements, so like;
 

1 hour ago, Paul92 said:

I appreciate there is no 'Paul' in my head pulling the strings. Whatever I am, doesn't have a name exactly. But do I have any say over anything? 

Can you find something that can appreciate? And how do you know the head is owned by something, can you find what is owning the head, or could it be just a head?
If you look for this I that can or cant have a say over anything, what do you find?
 

1 hour ago, Paul92 said:

I was feeling better yesterday. I went into work, had a laugh with colleagues. I tried to stay present (is this a choice?) and felt slightly better about everything. I thought I'll just go with the flow and not get annoyed about anything. I'll accept whatever comes. 

Can something be found that is feeling, or can only the feeling (sensations) be found?
A lot of 'I' in there, if you look for this I you don't find anything, and if you look more carefully and longer, you still won't find it. It's because it's simply not there, to get clear on this you could either get it right now, or alternatively keep looking at it until it gradually becomes clear.

Intellectualising your way towards getting these things, won't really work. Better to look directly for the 'it'.

[Leo Gura]

@Paul92 Paul as a biographical, biological, physical entity is constructed fiction. A narrative.

But there is a True You -- the True Self/No-Self/Nothingness/Void/God. Your true nature is not human but God. You are God thinking it is Paul. So when you realize that you are actually God, you will also realize that God has Will. God has infinite Will, in fact. Paul's will is a tiny splinter off God's infinite Will.

So in a sense you will discover Paul was never really in control.

But then you will also discover that since you are God, you control and create everything. As God, you have Will which you can use to create. So literally God allocates a tiny percentage of its infinite Will to this body of Paul's so that it could create a life. As a human your creative capacities are not infinite, they are limited so long as you are in a human form. If you exit the human form your creative power will be infinite, you can literally materialize physical objects out of thin air. But at this point you're not a human any more, you are the Godhead. You are that which you were before you were born.

In the end, everything is God's choice. But the kicker is, you're God! But simultaneously you're human

None of this is to be believed. You must discover if it is true through consciousness practices.

The more conscious you become the more of God's Will will be at your disposal. Eventually you and God will merge into one such there will be zero distance between your lifting a finger and God willing it so.

The definition of a devil is someone who thinks he is separate from God. The devil seeks to separate itself from God and rule using his own will. But the devil is always just a partition within God. So the devil is tricking itself into thinking that it is in control. Eventually the devil must surrender control and accept that it was God all along. This merges the devil back into God as if the separation never even happened. That's nonduality in a nutshell. Nonduality polarizes into duality and then depolarizes back into nonduality.

God is the doing non-doer

[luckieluuke]

@Paul92  It´s like Leo says. I have been thinking and exploring this alot. So much is contradictory on this path. Then again that is the essence of non dualism, two opposites are the same. When we are at the beginning of the path it can be good to believe false ideas, such as free will.
The way I see it. Ask yourself: do you have free will? don´t think, feel. If the answer is yes then use that free will to explore further. And maybe one day you will find the answer in your experience that no, you have no free will. But Thats the future and there is not much need to worry about that, be here now present.

[Truth Addict]

@Paul92

A cat does not need a free will to learn how to go to the bathroom.

You don't choose to teach it, and it does not choose to learn.

But the learning process still happens anyways.

There is an impulse to do something, that impulse does not come from the you that you think you are (ego), it rather comes much deeper, directly from God (God's will).

[noselfnofun]

33 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Paul92 Paul as a biographical, biological, physical entity is constructed fiction. A narrative.

But there is a True You -- the True Self/No-Self/Nothingness/Void/God. Your true nature is not human but God. You are God thinking it is Paul. So when you realize that you are actually God, you will also realize that God has Will. God has infinite Will, in fact. Paul's will is a tiny splinter off God's infinite Will.

So in a sense you will discover Paul was never really in control.

But then you will also discover that since you are God, you control and create everything. As God, you have Will which you can use to create. So literally God allocates a tiny percentage of its infinite Will to this body of Paul's so that it could create a life. As a human your creative capacities are not infinite, they are limited so long as you are in a human form. If you exit the human form your creative power will be infinite, you can literally materialize physical objects out of thin air. But at this point you're not a human any more, you are the Godhead. You are that which you were before you were born.

In the end, everything is God's choice. But the kicker is, you're God! But simultaneously you're human

None of this is to be believed. You must discover if it is true through consciousness practices.

The more conscious you become the more of God's Will will be at your disposal. Eventually you and God will merge into one such there will be zero distance between your lifting a finger and God willing it so.

The definition of a devil is someone who thinks he is separate from God. The devil seeks to separate itself from God and rule using his own will. But the devil is always just a partition within God. So the devil is tricking itself into thinking that it is in control. Eventually the devil must surrender control and accept that it was God all along. This merges the devil back into God as if the separation never even happened. That's nonduality in a nutshell. Nonduality polarizes into duality and then depolarizes back into nonduality.

God is the doing non-doer

Nicely explained 

[Jkris]

@Waken This is what I am not getting all.There is a rock solid I feeling or me feeling in the field of awareness which is what the mind claims to be I or me or sense of seperate self.

So seeing doesn't help ? Does it ? This I or me feeling is permanant in the waking state.ocassionally momentarily there is no I or me feeling when one is fully involved in some activity.A longer duration of this absence of I feeling during activity is also called the flow.

But how to get rid of this I or me feeling is the riddle question ? 

Even in the gaps of absence of thoughts this I feeling remains ?

@Leo Gura

[Nahm]

Particles or waves, up to you. In either case, it is The Light. 

[Shaun]

Is my ego and point of view the only ego and point of view? Did god fall asleep to itself and dream only Shaun into manifestation? Leo hasn't been too clear on this. 

[Forestluv]

@Paul92 A couple things I found helpful. . . . Kriya and Yin yoga can be a great form of mediation for busy minds because your mind-body is sorta doing something. Sometimes natural breathing isn’t quite enough for grounding for my mind-body. As well, I just try to relax into the depth if whatever is revealed. If I have some idea or goal I’m supposed to reach some sort of empty peace and try to manipulate to reach that state - it doesn’t flow so well. There can be insights and magic trying to reveal itself while my ego is trying to reach some blank state of mind. 

Regarding “choice”. . . One meditative exercise I’ve done is to watch thoughts as they arise and observe where they cone from. It’s fascinating. The same for choice. As you meditate observe “choice”. Who exactly is this chooser? It’s not intellectual and cannot be found text. The realization is only found in your direct experience. As you mediate watch for the chooser.  The chooser that chooses thoughts, that chooses yo wiggle, that chooses to reach out and check the timer. Exactly what/who is this “chooser”. I discovered I had made a lot of assumptions about choice. It’s not something the intellectual self figures out - it cones “prior” to that in direct experience  

 

[CreamCat]

11 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

my mind-body

What is difference between mind-body and body-mind?

[Forestluv]

23 minutes ago, CreamCat said:

What is difference between mind-body and body-mind?

I don’t know. The sequential order of the  two words? ?‍♂️ 

To me, both phrases point to the same thing and I don’t see a relevant distinction. 

[now is forever]

1 hour ago, CreamCat said:

What is difference between mind-body and body-mind?

top-down, bottom-up?

the mindbody might be more of an illusional body or the body you can grasp through the mind. it’s also where theory and knowledge is stored. the bodymind is the totality of it - so might be good to differentiate them to understand how you control body processes and emotions through different techniques. the mindbody would be the grasping of the interaction with the mind. i guess during meditation visualization you could talk about a mindbody more than if you integrate movement and action proceeding. bodymind is how information is stored and received in the whole of the body it is a lot more about well being emotion and presence.

Edited April 25, 2019 by now is forever

[Paul92]

Thanks for the responses, as always. I will respond properly later, as I'm a bit busy at the moment. I had an incredible random thought earlier... (I know..) but we if we are our thoughts? 

I mean, if our thoughts are our souls, or we have a soul, then we have to think some how don't we... Maybe this is the best way that God could make it so... 

[SOUL]

Being isn't doing, it's being. Being is an expression of awareness in the manifest existence so when we realize our awareness of being in the present moment it is not doing anything, it's being aware in the present moment, it's a pure expression of presence.

The story we tell about it doesn't create It or add to presence but can only serve to distract from presence. The story of a doer or no doer, of free will or not, of 'god' or devils is just the mind's imagination conjuring up a narrative to identify with.

Aware of being present in the moment, the experience of presence, doesn't require a story. We can 'do' all sorts of meditative activities to practice 'presence', to exercise our mind to attune to awareness of being present in the moment but presence is a spontaneous expression of consciousness in the manifest.

Don't think to much about the story or how to conceptualise it, just be presence. As you go about your day whether the mind is full or empty, noisy or silent, active or still and with every situation and conditions you find yourself in just realize 'presence'.

So I would suggest just avoid all the story telling about what is real or illusion, true self, no self, God, free will and blah blah blah. Be.....just be. Awareness of being present. Realize presence.

Edited April 25, 2019 by SOUL

[Leo Gura]

6 hours ago, Jkris said:

@Waken This is what I am not getting all.There is a rock solid I feeling or me feeling in the field of awareness which is what the mind claims to be I or me or sense of seperate self.

So seeing doesn't help ? Does it ? This I or me feeling is permanant in the waking state.ocassionally momentarily there is no I or me feeling when one is fully involved in some activity.A longer duration of this absence of I feeling during activity is also called the flow.

But how to get rid of this I or me feeling is the riddle question ? 

Even in the gaps of absence of thoughts this I feeling remains ?

@Leo Gura

It requires a change in state of consciousness.

The sense of I is more than just a feeling, thought, or belief. It's an entire state of being such that you know no other possibility.

Changing that state requires a lot of concentration practice, or kriya yoga, or psychedelics.

[Paul92]

@SOUL how do you mean? If the mind is noisy, or quiet, just recognise presence? What does that actually mean? As in recognise the thoughts? For sure I can notice them and do. If I find myself judging now or assessing a situation, I realise and I don't. I'm not wasting energy on judging what is if I can help it. Sure it's harder sometimes than others but... 

 

@Leo Gura Exactly.. I've only ever known being 'me'. And I have a sense of self. Maybe not as 'Paul', I recognise that is just a name. But I find it difficult to be able to drop the sense of self. What are we left with? 

It's like you say we are God. Or a bit of God. Does that make us all individuals then on a certain level? 

Also, I appreciate that on here I can seem provocative and might have appeared like that in the past. But now I'm making a genuine effort to grow and get on board with this. It is the only hope 'I' have. 

[ajasatya]

@Paul92

fight no i
find what i points to
for i is yet another finger

[SOUL]

20 minutes ago, Paul92 said:

how do you mean? If the mind is noisy, or quiet, just recognise presence? What does that actually mean? As in recognise the thoughts? For sure I can notice them and do. If I find myself judging now or assessing a situation, I realise and I don't. I'm not wasting energy on judging what is if I can help it. Sure it's harder sometimes than others but... 

Well, I said realize presence but to initially recognize presence can lead to making It real. Although presence is awakened as a direct experience when it is realized in us.

Do you judge your judging? It's not about the types or amount of activity and content that happens in the mind, it's the attachment to it, the story can distract from being present.

Even the narrative of not attaching to the story can be a distraction if we allow it. The mind doesn't want the simplicity of presence, it wants the complicated story and will generate it in everything.

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, Paul92 said:

xactly.. I've only ever known being 'me'. And I have a sense of self. Maybe not as 'Paul', I recognise that is just a name. But I find it difficult to be able to drop the sense of self. What are we left with? 

It's like you say we are God. Or a bit of God. Does that make us all individuals then on a certain level?

You are confused about who/what you are. This is how most normal people are. At the same time they identify with being the body, the mind, and also not that. They are unsure and confused. The mind plays these games where one minute it thinks its the body, another minute it thinks its a human, another minute it thinks its the voice heard in the head, another minute it thinks it was born, another minute it thinks its some kind of "soul", another minute it thinks its God, and so on.

The purpose of self-inquiry is to become very strict with yourself and force yourself to confront this shell game that the mind plays. What are you REALLY? Not as a belief, but what the fuck are you? If you claim that you are real, then you must be able to clearly specify what is it that's real. The body? The voice? The memories of childhood? The feelings of pain? If we put a gun to your head right now, what is it that you fear will die? << That is the false self.

Getting clear about the false self is just as important as discovering the True Self. You can't disidentify with something unless you first clearly realize that you're identified with it. You might be identified with your childhood memories and not even realize it. So you have to ask yourself very seriously, "Am I identified with my childhood memories? Is that what I actually am?" And so forth with any other possible identifications until you eliminate them all. What will remain is nothing, which is what you actually are.