Politics and spirituality (duality video part 1)

[Leo Gura]

@How to be wise As I have told you before, you have bastardized spirituality into an absolutist position which denies relative reality and relative truths. This is pathological Zen devilry.

You are shirking your responsibilty as a creator. Nothing needs to happen, but that doesn't mean we cannot decide to execute Hitler for being a vicious devil.

We get to decide how we want life and society to unfold. If you want to sit back and do nothing, that's fine, but that is your choice. Do not act like you are not making a choice. By not making a choice you've made your choice.

Whatever choice we make becomes God's will.

Reality makes things happen through YOU! Not for you. If you choose to not prepare for winter, winter will come and you will starve to death. Reality will not magically feed you. Reality gave you enough smarts to not be so stupid as to ignore winter.

You are exhibiting a dangerous level of naivete.

Nonduality does NOT mean inaction or indifference.

To escape personal suffering into some Nirvanic formless state and then to act like nothing else matters because you are free of suffering is perhaps the highest form of Zen devilry I have seen.

[How to be wise]

@Leo Gura I’m not saying that we shouldn’t act in a responsible manner towards life. That is of course important, and I agree with you there. But that doesn’t mean that I have to believe that somebody ‘needs to be stopped.’ That’s just not true. That’s the ego’s judgement. I’m not saying don’t create a police force, those things are important. But that doesn’t require believing that anybody needs to be stopped, cause it just ain’t true. Escaping suffering is priority number one, but of course if you escape your suffering you will automatically start helping other people. It’s important to know that nothing matters, but at the same time be available to others if they require your help.

[Leo Gura]

@How to be wise Well, practically, if you don't believe some people need to be stopped you cannot create a police force nor enforce any laws.

So you can act too cool for school, but that's only because someone else has worked their ass off to create a police force so that you can sit comfortably it your room without getting your throat slit.

Survival demands action of you. If you are okay with dying, fine. Then you will die. See ya in the next life.

Do not take government for granted. Without a good government you would be a slave. And good government does not happen by accident. It requires intense battle and effort against devils who would wish to enslave you.

[purerogue]

Lets theory craft:

You are everything. so it is in your best interests to let everyone live their life to their fullest , with their unique touch, but if that unique touch causes problems that makes rest of everything suffer I think it is legit to take action to stop it, there must be some balance for me, if you do not care I do not care as you do not get in the way of balance, but how long will you not care when it will start to effect you. 

Edited April 24, 2019 by purerogue

[Leo Gura]

@purerogue Precisely.

When the rubber hits the road, you will run crying to government to save your ass from the devils who want to rape you.

The people who take government for granted are the ones who already feel totally safe because government has provided them with that safety without them even being aware of it.

That's how good government is. It's amazing! Like magic!

[How to be wise]

24 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@How to be wise Well, practically, if you don't believe some people need to be stopped you cannot create a police force nor enforce any laws.

So you can act too cool for school, but that's only because someone else has worked their ass off to create a police force so that you can sit comfortably it your room without getting your throat slit.

Survival demands action of you. If you are okay with dying, fine. Then you will die. See ya in the next life.

Do not take government for granted. Without a good government you would be a slave. And good government does not happen by accident. It requires intense battle and effort against devils who would wish to enslave you.

But how can you do all of that without suffering. Believing the thought ‘someone needs to be stopped’ by definition creates suffering. Fighting anything internally creates suffering. You can fight it externally, as long as you do not fight it internally. Are you saying we can’t survive without suffering?

[purerogue]

Not necessarily, unfortunately we are far from being evolved enough as society to even make judgement that are in best interests of everything, or to even integrate simple things we know, because as soon as ego gets in the way you forget all your lessons. 

Edited April 24, 2019 by purerogue

[Leo Gura]

44 minutes ago, How to be wise said:

But how can you do all of that without suffering. Believing the thought ‘someone needs to be stopped’ by definition creates suffering. Fighting anything internally creates suffering. You can fight it externally, as long as you do not fight it internally. Are you saying we can’t survive without suffering?

Suffering IS a survival function. The only reason anything suffers is because it cares to survive.

Suffering can be transcended through consciousness at the individual level, but at the collective level that's another story.

Why are you framing it as "someone needs to be stopped"? You can act against devilry without being attached to it, and hence avoid suffering.

I am not saying you need to fight anything internally.

I can vote against Trump without hating him. I can be conscious that he is me, but that he must still not be allowed to hold power. I can support the existence of a police department without suffering simply by understanding that police is needed for a decent society. This just requires some understanding of how government works.

You can work to build a decent government without becoming an ideological partisan zealot about it.

In fact, anything that can be done with suffering and attachment can also be done without suffering or attachment.

You seem to be conflating action and education with suffering.

[How to be wise]

22 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Suffering IS a survival function. The only reason anything suffers is because it cares to survive.

Suffering can be transcended through consciousness at the individual level, but at the collective level that's another story.

Why are you framing it as "someone needs to be stopped"? You can act against devilry without being attached to it, and hence avoid suffering.

I am not saying you need to fight anything internally.

I can vote against Trump without hating him. I can be conscious that he is me, but that he must still not be allowed to hold power. I can support the existence of a police department without suffering simply by understanding that police is needed for a decent society. This just requires some understanding of how government works.

You can work to build a decent government without becoming an ideological partisan zealot about it.

In fact, anything that can be done with suffering and attachment can also be done without suffering or attachment.

You seem to be conflating action and education with suffering.

That’s true, but what about fighting a war with another country. Can you really shoot other human beings without suffering? And what about being part of a police force that is about to raid some drug dealers. Can you really fight the drug dealers without internal resistance?

[Leo Gura]

@How to be wise Which is why most of society is not enlightened and never will be. Most enlightened people just sit around and do nothing. You don't see enlightened people in the military or police force or 99% of other basic jobs.

If everyone got enlightened tomorrow, society would completely collapse, worse than a nuclear war.

In practice, enlightened people depend on the rest of society functioning unconsciously, in the same way that the police depend on criminals committing crimes.

Enlightenment does have a certain elitism to it. It cannot really work unless society is advanced enough to support it. Or unless you are totally off on your own living in a cave. But even then you need someone to bring you food.

In practice what happens is that an enlightened person is so rare the he can survive off his followers and fans.

And also, in practice, if you are conscious enough to not suffer, you will be resourceful enough not to place yourself into a job where you have to shoot people.

Then again, you can still probably be an enlightened police officer if you really wanted. I don't see why that necessarily requires suffering. There's no real contradiction shooting a bank robber. You shoot him because he's breaking an important law. Your job in this case is to defend society against devils, which ultimately helps society to awaken.

[now is forever]

@Leo Gura really? taking someone’s life because he robs a bank is not really an excuse for shooting a person... if he holds a gun and shoots or threatens to shoot is another story.certainly is a crime a crime but just shooting around without a lifethreatrning situation is also very contradictory - maybe it depends on a countries law maybe it’s an ethical question. isn’t it funny how cops learn when it’s ethical to shoot but everyone can own a gun...

Edited April 24, 2019 by now is forever

[Leo Gura]

@now is forever A bank robbery is a life-threatening situation. Police use overwhelming force in order to make sure people don't fuck with them. Which maintains the peace you enjoy.

If you pull out a gun in a public area, you should expect to get shot by police. This is not inhumane. But obviously the police need to be well-trained not to use excessive force, especially against minorities. But if someone is waving a gun around in public, shooting him is not inhuman. If he has no gun, then he shouldn't be shot but tazered.

It's not so complicated. It just requires good police training and accountability.

[RichardY]

Without spirituality, society in it's present form will/is continuing along the path of eusocial(in group) selection, ant colony, and a tech singularity. Very bad for the rest of the people in society, and for those at the top, dependent on the hedonic adaptation.

H.G Wells prime example. First man in the Moon, The Time Machine, War of the Worlds, Island of Dr Moreau. ALL of the stories based around the same theme of eugenic selection. An Atheist, hence the theme.

Direct Democracy(as opposed to Representative) would be better than the current system, more elitist if potentially more bloody(although with modern conveniences maybe not so much). Direct feedback, as opposed to the delayed feedback. Better still would be Aristocracy. Aristotle said that Monarch was best, but then he lived in a time where kingdoms were often the equivalent population of modern towns.

[now is forever]

9 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@now is forever A bank robbery is a life-threatening situation. Police use overwhelming force in order to make sure people don't fuck with them. Which maintains the peace you enjoy.

If you pull out a gun in a public area, you should expect to get shot by police. This is not inhumane. But obviously the police need to be well-trained not to use excessive force, especially against minorities. But if someone is waving a gun around in public, shooting him is not inhuman. If he has no gun, then he shouldn't be shot but tazered.

It's not so complicated. It just requires good police training and accountability.

yes. of course, that’s why someone carrying a gun should get to pass psychological tests and get ethical training like police does. if the police has to learn that, why can anyone own a gun and don’t have to pass the same training. it’s nonsensical, really how does this fit? or is it so that police gets the opportunity to shoot? after all the bank robbers behave like the wild animals they probably have been all along, so it’s natural selection, some collateral damage aside. to own a gun means to know how to use it and that doesn’t only refer to knowing how to pull a trigger. how should anyone know that it’s not made for waving? 

movies are full of showing how cool it is to wave with guns right next to how cool it is to brush your teeth.

it‘s also interesting to compare owning a gun to owning a camera. it all depends on weather you look through cross hairs or through a viewfinder. both like to frame and find a motive to shoot.

owning a cool camera doesn’t make a good photographer though.

Edited April 25, 2019 by now is forever

[Truth Addict]

On 24/04/2019 at 11:03 AM, How to be wise said:

But how can you do all of that without suffering. Believing the thought ‘someone needs to be stopped’ by definition creates suffering. Fighting anything internally creates suffering. You can fight it externally, as long as you do not fight it internally. Are you saying we can’t survive without suffering?

Don't fight, don't resist.

Just do the best you think you can do.

It is possible to survive without suffering, and that happens when you remove the assumption that there has to be suffering in order to do something against your will.

What is suffering but another duality?

You can love the criminals and stop them, it's the best thing you can do.

❤️

Edited April 25, 2019 by Truth Addict