Non-Duality and Veganism

[purerogue]

Lister there is no point to talk to you, you just spew your beliefs no matter what is told to you, you want others to believe, follow you so much that you have become religious about this, your studies prove nothing, you can find studies just about anything that will be opposite to what you are telling and it is not even about that , I am certain that you have not even looked into studies them self , just looking at this nice presented video information that suits all your religious beliefs and have not taken time to actually research how accurate this study is because all you can do is act on impulses.

[Lister]

@DrewNows You have set up your last comment in such a way that I cannot quote from it. Whether you have done this deliberately or not is open to personal interpretation.

I want to press on on at least one thing you said (for now).

If you believe science is corrupted by bias, why are you reliant on your own 1st person perspective (thinking for yourself)?

Surely thinking for yourself has inherent bias built in?

Science has brought together the evidence that stretches up and down the whole hierarchy of evidence (pictured below). From high level meta analysis to basic causal mechanisms. All point in the direction that inflammation and high animal products consumption is linked to western chronic diseases. There have literally hundreds of thousands of studies that when taken into consideration as a whole (Yes we have exceptions to the rules, poorly designed studies, corruoted studies, industry funded studies) paint a clear picture of what e going on. 

Propaganda is designed to confuse us so.that we just throw our hands in he air, appeal to futility and decide to eat what we want. Then employ all kinds of blue mental gymnastics in order to justify that. Which is what you have done.

You dont understand science or critical thinking. You contradict yourself on the most basic points. Your self awareness is practically non existent.

I can only conclude that you're not in a position to speak about non duality because you havent even developed upto orange yet. 

So let me ask you again, why do you condemn bias in science and then in the next sentence condone personal bias when declaring that "I think for myself"?

This is a glaringly obvious contradiction.

 

 

 

[Lister]

27 minutes ago, purerogue said:

Lister there is no point to talk to you, you just spew your beliefs no matter what is told to you, you want others to believe, follow you so much that you have become religious about this, your studies prove nothing, you can find studies just about anything that will be opposite to what you are telling and it is not even about that , I am certain that you have not even looked into studies them self , just looking at this nice presented video information that suits all your religious beliefs and have not taken time to actually research how accurate this study is because all you can do is act on impulses.

Yes it seems like a religion. Education is about presenting a narrative, we all sound the same us vegans, but we repeat the ideas in such a way as so that they can be assimilated easily. This should be obvious to orange at least. Not to blue it seems?

This is marketing 101. It's not that the science is cherry picked, it's just that you have bad science supporting your meat eating. That has in part been funded and executed by the industries that feel threatened by this movement. You can go read read studies for yourself if you want. But I don't think you have the maturity and patience to stay on point. You have already taken yourself out of being taken seriously in this discussion, I doubt anyone reading would take your word because you have not provided any reasoning for your baseless assumptions. If you want to be taken seriously in life you must enter a discussion whole heartedly with the intent to argue all your points reasonably. You're just lazy and impulsive. If you can bring something other that your baseless conclusions based on confusion and ignorance of the science, then you will be taken seriously. 

Edited April 28, 2019 by Lister

[purerogue]

No there are lots of vegans who are not religious about their diet and then there are guys like you , problem with you is that I could debunk all of your previous posts to certain level, but seeing what kind of person you are it would be completely pointless as I might as well just talk with wall. 

[Lister]

@purerogue Let me say it again, all of the 200+ patients on Dr. Essylstens programme either reversed their heart disease, or never had another conorary event.

I don't know how else I can say it, this means that animal products are the only cause of heart disease.

If what the carnivores say is.true, that grains and plants cause inflammation then why did all of the adherents to the Essylsten protocol do so well?

If you can just sit with that for a while and read the studies yourself you will see that it's impossible that plants cause inflammation.

[Lister]

2 minutes ago, purerogue said:

No there are lots of vegans who are not religious about their diet and then there are guys like you , problem with you is that I could debunk all of your previous posts to certain level, but seeing what kind of person you are it would be completely pointless as I might as well just talk with wall. 

Please debunk it then. Bring me the reasoning and science. That's what this thread is for. Put your money where your mouth is. Act in a way that people will take you seriously. Currently I don't take you seriously at all, because all you have is baseless assertions.

Let's go. Every opportunity I have to spread this information is welcome.

[purerogue]

4 minutes ago, Lister said:

@purerogue Let me say it again, all of the 200+ patients on Dr. Essylstens programme either reversed their heart disease, or never had another conorary event.

I don't know how else I can say it, this means that animal products are the only cause of heart disease.

If what the carnivores say is.true, that grains and plants cause inflammation then why did all of the adherents to the Essylsten protocol do so well?

If you can just sit with that for a while and read the studies yourself you will see that it's impossible that plants cause inflammation.

If you would just write in google "do plants,vegetables cause inflammation" you will find out that it is not true, but ofc as I said all you can do is make your religious comments, because for you all is black and white. 

If you will write do animals get cancer, your world will shatter again , as animals do get cancer, you are full of shit, all you do is make one sided claims , because you act on impulses and religious beliefs. 

Edited April 28, 2019 by purerogue

[Lister]

19 minutes ago, purerogue said:

If you would just write in google "do plants,vegetables cause inflammation" you will find out that it is not true, but ofc as I said all you can do is make your religious comments, because for you all is black and white. 

If you will write do animals get cancer, your world will shatter again , as animals do get cancer, you are full of shit, all you do is make one sided claims , because you act on impulses and religious beliefs. 

Of course animals get cancer. Nobody here has said otherwise. I have made the accurate statement that big cats don't get cardiovascular disease eating meat. That's a true statement. There is no "grey area" with this lol. Grey areas are there, but the point of science is to find out causation - which is  very black and white, it has to be.  

Purerogue, do you actually have an argument or are you just content calling everything black and white as if it's some kind of religious mantra?

Because what you're doing here is attempting to go meta on my reasoning without providing reasoning for your meta analysis. Which says to me that you're a spiritual bypasser. And judging by your behaviour I'd say that is an accurate assumption to make about you. You have not provided anything except repeated some of Leo's mantras.

Edited April 28, 2019 by Lister

[Lister]

@purerogue I think what you're doing is making the personal incredulity fallacy. Which means that just because you don't understand something personally (science) you believe that it cannot make sense in and of itself. 

You're full of fallacies, ad hominems and hyperbole. 

Bring some solid reasoning and help let others decide what is true. Currently you're solid unhealthy blue pretending to be something they clearly are not.

Edited April 28, 2019 by Lister

[purerogue]

Lister I personally think that it would be better for you to set your ideas of how it should be aside and  look into all angles yourself, I do not take either of sides as it all depends on circumstances, it might look like I am on the side of meat eating but it is only because I do not want that people pick such one sided ideas  of how it should be. 

Edited April 28, 2019 by purerogue

[Lister]

17 minutes ago, purerogue said:

Lister I personally think that it would be better for you to set your ideas of how it should be aside and  look into all angles yourself, I do not take either of sides as it all depends on circumstances, it might look like I am on the side of meat eating but it is only because I do not want that people pick such one sided ideas  of how it should be. 

This is your imagination. You have an idea of what it means to be a vegan (from past experiences interacting with vegans) and you believe that this is what you are seeing in me.

This is completely obvious to me, because you have made a lot of baseless assertions that are nothing but aspect of your internal representation.

This is not a should. I'm completely fine with people who eat meat. I'm talking about what is practical now in the relative world. The science we have in support of veganism is so overwhelming that I cannot ignore it anymore. If we dont act now we won't survive. Nothing will survive. 

The fact that you don't see this is extremely alarming, you sound like another person who wants to sit on the fence because you feel better doing that. There is no grey areas with this, this is what I'm saying. Even if by some miraculous reason that we did need animal products to survive it doesn't matter because we cannot physically do it with the physical laws we at bound to. We cannot sustain meat eating for coming on 10bn inhabitants. The healthcare system in the US is nearly bankrupt. This isn't a theory, it's real. You may not think this is your problem now, but believe me you will know about it soon enough and then if you haven't acted it will be too late.

There is no reasonable argument against veganism. I have spent the last 4 year's vehemently arguing against it myself and have read every paper that meat eaters use to deny veganism and all of it is junk science and lies. The only thing I could do after all that study was submit to it, because it's the truth. 

[Lister]

@purerogue Now, if you want to take me on this subject then I implore you to try. Gather everything you have got, because I have seen it all. Let's do it. If you can tell me in very clear terms why logic and science is fundamentally wrong and that we don't have a crisis on our doorstep then I'll consider it. But as far as I can see from yellow cognition is that relativism doesn't trump formal operational. It's just different and a different way to look at the same phenomena. Quantum mechanics does not debunk netownian physics. They are just different models. While you're wondering about quantum physics your arteries are still forming plaques and your body is dying. 

 

 

Edited April 28, 2019 by Lister

[now is forever]

7 hours ago, Lister said:

Not sure how to reply to this. I don't wish to offend you personally but this seems like word salad.

yes i like salad  

usually the secret is in the dressing.

Edited April 28, 2019 by now is forever

[Lister]

16 minutes ago, now is forever said:

yes i like salad  

usually the secret is in the dressing.

Moving on from the non dualist spam...

[now is forever]

@Lister you know the problem is people don’t like healthy stuff, some do, yes, that’s why they eat unhealthy margarine made of refined fossile oils, it’s like eating plastic. in this case butter is much much more healthy. some can’t eat salad without putting sugar or sauce without ketchup and mayonnaise. maybe it’s because they don’t know it better. people smoke and know it’s unhealthy, why can’t they stop? there is a level of proving things unhealthy and a level of ignorance. some people change their food habits but a lot of them will instead start a witch hunt. 

the non dualist spam is more of a commentary than a spam. i think i don’t like spam. if you would say it’s a carrot i’d prefer that.

 

spam is also only some fast food, some poor pig in a can. carrots are fast, too.

Edited April 28, 2019 by now is forever

[Lister]

@now is forever I think I get what you are saying. I agree, not everyone wants to be healthy. Veganism ultimately isn't about health, it's about a solution to a real problem we have. I've made the information here perfectly accessible to others that a whole foods plant based diet is the healthiest diet we have, so there is no excuse now to turn around and insist that we need to eat animals for health reasons. 

You can kill yourself eating a junk food vegan diet. That is a personal choice that everyone has. But at this point there needs to be serious questioning of whether we can now call eating animals a personal choice. Especially as animal agriculture is so detrimental to climate change. Something needs to shift or we are all in big trouble. I have seen some discussion that it's only a matter of time that veganism will be forced upon us anyway. 

Edited April 28, 2019 by Lister

[Farnaby]

7 hours ago, Lister said:

@Farnaby Seems that there are some "non dualist" get triggered by a conversation on veganism. Lots of attachment to meat eating, selective bias, relying on 1st person assumption only, word salad, contradiction. 

Make up your own mind based on what you see already in this discussion. 

Actually, I didn't start this thread to make up my mind. I've been a vegetarian for some years and although being vegan would be more coherent with my values, at this point of my life I'm flexible with some of my incoherences. But I don't fool myself thinking I'm not incoherent and telling myself I need to eat cheese, etc., because I know I don't need it. 

Also, I 100% agree with you when you say that it seems a lot of people are using spiritual concepts to justify any kind of behavior as if everything is morally acceptable just because our species does it. If it weren't for people who change the way they act and think, there would be no progress and we would still see slavery, etc., as morally acceptable. 

[now is forever]

37 minutes ago, Lister said:

@now is forever I think I get what you are saying. I agree, not everyone wants to be healthy. Veganism ultimately isn't about health, it's about a solution to a real problem we have. I've made the information here perfectly accessible to others that a whole foods plant based diet is the healthiest diet we have, so there is no excuse now to turn around and insist that we need to eat animals for health reasons. 

You can kill yourself eating a junk food vegan diet. That is a personal choice that everyone has. But at this point there needs to be serious questioning of whether we can now call eating animals a personal choice. Especially as animal agriculture is so detrimental to climate change. Something needs to shift or we are all in big trouble.

yes you are right but it must shift intelligently - there are multiple factors of why it would be intelligent to start a vegetarian or vegan diet. my guess is going from meat eater straight to vegan is very difficult, too. if you just cut them from their cheap meat source of course there will be a witch hunt, they’ll ask why meat is only for the rich then, because that’s what will happen - the rich won’t cut down on it. witch hunt also because people don’t know how to eat healthy wholefood, it’s also food for the wealthy and the ones who go the leangth of preparing fresh food. and some will have troubles to afford it. it’s not just their problem then. you need a wholistic approach to change something. it’s difficult to make this change.

Edited April 28, 2019 by now is forever

[Lister]

21 minutes ago, now is forever said:

yes you are right but it must shift intelligently - there are multiple factors of why it would be intelligent to start a vegetarian or vegan diet. my guess is going from meat eater straight to vegan is very difficult, too. if you just cut them from their cheap meat source of course there will be a witch hunt, they’ll ask why meat is only for the rich then, because that’s what will happen - the rich won’t cut down on it. witch hunt also because people don’t know how to eat healthy wholefood, and some will have troubles to afford it. it’s not just their problem then. you need a wholistic approach to change something.

I agree, I think you can see your ideas being played out by the Canadian government with this year's dietary guidelines. Canada is one of the greenest nations and are well in the process of transcending unhealthy orange corporatism as it is previously had a hold on western dietary guidelines. 

Edited April 28, 2019 by Lister

[Lister]

44 minutes ago, Farnaby said:

Actually, I didn't start this thread to make up my mind.

Ok, my bad. I made an assumption. I hope your get something useful from the interactions here at the very least.

48 minutes ago, Farnaby said:

Also, I 100% agree with you when you say that it seems a lot of people are using spiritual concepts to justify any kind of behavior as if everything is morally acceptable just because our species does it.

Appeal to nature appeal to tradition. 

53 minutes ago, Farnaby said:

If it weren't for people who change the way they act and think, there would be no progress and we would still see slavery, etc., as morally acceptable. 

I agree. Evolution is not apart from non duality. Veganism is just the current wave of adaptation that needs to happen.