Non-Duality and Veganism

[Lister]

Millions of people have died and fought for our species to have the basic right to sit in the comfort of our own homes, with opportunity, with freedom of speech to say what we want and practice any spiritual practice we want without fear of persecution or fear of being burned at the stake or mercilessly tortured and murdered because we are owned by some egoic tyrant.

Has the time not come to extend those same rights toward other species? 

What are these animals to you? What do they mean to you? Are they just objects or are they sentient beings?

Does being enlightened really mean that we become ok with being tortured, raped murdered and mutilated by our "owners" so that they can have the enjoyment of a bacon sandwich? 

Doesn't the joy of "being" come from within? If so then what pleasure does an enlightened being need from eating an animal product? Animal products are now recognized as not being essential for health, so at this point eating animal products is just mindless murder. 

Does an enlightened being really ok with mindless pointless murder for the sake of an external sense pleasure that lasts a few seconds?

[Dumb Enlightened]

On 25/04/2019 at 2:08 AM, Lister said:

So you are saying that there is no organism that has a nervous system and emotions that suffers emotional turmoil, disease, pain, suffering, just so that you can have a bacon sandwich? 

And that this "other" sentient being is not also a fragment of you? 

How do you feel about slavery? Do you think that doesn't make any difference to you or us? Maybe you would like to go back 500 years when slavery was "normal", imagine yourself in that position where someone is exploiting your life and energy and taking a way your freedom to live? Maybe you would like for us as a species to return to that state? 

Of course, it's doesn't matter, right? So I'm sure you will be ok with that situation where you are trapped in a pig enclosure and cannot move your entire life? It's all ok, isn't it? 

 

What I mean is hard to explain because it requires going beyond the mind's POV, I'm not saying that I (as an individual person) agree with this kinda things, nor I like it. But if they are happening, or they've happened, they were allowed to happen, or even more, it was necessary for then to happen.

Nothing that has ever happened was a mistake, everything that happens has a purpose, so if people are killing animals to eat right now, that's exactly what is supposed to happen. Here we are talking from the highest point of view,

an "enlightened being" indeed enjoys everything, they enjoy life as a whole, we as humans see in duality, people who are being torture, and people who are torturing, animals who are dying, and animals who live. Enlightenment makes you see life as a whole, and then eventually the human being, the person, may change it's preferences, or try to save the animals, or whatever, but Enlightenment doesn't happen with the person, the changes in the person are a byproduct of it.

[Lister]

1 hour ago, Dumb Enlightened said:

What I mean is hard to explain because it requires going beyond the mind's POV, I'm not saying that I (as an individual person) agree with this kinda things, nor I like it. But if they are happening, or they've happened, they were allowed to happen, or even more, it was necessary for then to happen.

Nothing that has ever happened was a mistake, everything that happens has a purpose, so if people are killing animals to eat right now, that's exactly what is supposed to happen. Here we are talking from the highest point of view,

an "enlightened being" indeed enjoys everything, they enjoy life as a whole, we as humans see in duality, people who are being torture, and people who are torturing, animals who are dying, and animals who live. Enlightenment makes you see life as a whole, and then eventually the human being, the person, may change it's preferences, or try to save the animals, or whatever, but Enlightenment doesn't happen with the person, the changes in the person are a byproduct of it.

Ok to the rest of your comment, I want to target in on one aspect

1 hour ago, Dumb Enlightened said:

Nothing that has ever happened was a mistake, everything that happens has a purpose, so if people are killing animals to eat right now, that's exactly what is supposed to happen. 

I don't mean to offend you personally, but what I've just pointed out makes no sense whatsoever. You say that everything is supposed to be as it is, but you don't have access to everything that happened. You only have your own limited point of view that you see. But that aside, if everything is supposed to happen then animal rights and veganism is "supposed" to happen also. It's just not "supposed to happen" for you because you are a meat eater and what is supposed to be divine purpose is only divine purpose for you personally = eating animals.

This is why i don't call this kind of self deception enlightenment, it's just a way to stop the mind from struggling with difficult real world situations.

No problem, everything is divine purpose. No relative right or wrong. No struggle. Nice and peaceful and easy, isn't it? 

 

 

Edited April 26, 2019 by Lister

[Dumb Enlightened]

21 hours ago, Lister said:

No problem, everything is divine purpose. No relative right or wrong. No struggle. Nice and peaceful and easy, isn't it? 

 

 

That's exactly right !!!

If you really lived your life like this, would you ever suffer ?

But no, the mind loves suffering, that's why it always finds a way to find something wrong

For the ego, hell is the end of problems

Edited April 27, 2019 by Dumb Enlightened

[Scholar]

Enlightenment does not cure ignorance.

[Lister]

3 hours ago, Dumb Enlightened said:

That's exactly right !!!

If you really lived your life like this, would you ever suffer ?

But no, the mind loves suffering, that's why it always finds a way to find something wrong

For the ego, hell is the end of problems

What you're describing is not enlightenment. It's a disorder. All you're doing is suspending value judgements in order to feel better. That's not enlightenment.

What you don't understand is that there is a difference between healthy emotions, healthy empathy, healthy judgements and "suffering". Suffering means unconscious attachment to your preferences, thats all suffering is..Veganism isnt about perosnal preferences. Vegans aren't suffering, it's the animals that are suffering. Animals dont have the capacity to free themsleves from suffering. We are the species that are exploiting them.

Why didn't you address the remainder of my comment? Do you prefer to cherry pick and misdirect the conversation so that you can avoid answering difficult questions?

What would you do if someone broke into your house and tried to kill you are your loved ones? Would you let them because it's divine purpose, or would you act and understand that acting is also part of the divine purpose? 

Emotion is part of the divine. Duality is the divine. Disengaging emotions is not enlightenment, it's a trick.

If divine purpose is to eat animals, is it not also divine purpose to save animals? So what is it to be? What is the divine purpose of the universe? Because we have a duality here, don't we? How You resolve that? And why are you on the meat eating side of the divine purpose? Why aren't you on the animal rights side of the divine purpose? If both are not a problem then surely you are ok with going vegan? 

Your position makes no sense.  

Edited April 27, 2019 by Lister

[now is forever]

there is always an excuse, the soul can’t handle being a canibalizing being living off of the lifesource of another. the ego then steps in and starts to fingerpoint towards the ones that remind it of being a canibalizing being, telling them they are selfcanibalizers, because they destroyed their canibalizing ego transcending what the soul could be - the soul remains as a shadow of the canibal.

[DrewNows]

do not confuse the limited thinking mind with the divine 

 

 

[Lister]

4 hours ago, now is forever said:

there is always an excuse, the soul can’t handle being a canibalizing being living off of the lifesource of another. the ego then steps in and starts to fingerpoint towards the ones that remind it of being a canibalizing being, telling them they are selfcanibalizers, because they destroyed their canibalizing ego transcending what the soul could be - the soul remains as a shadow of the canibal.

This is the prime example of a spiritual ego, using spirituality to defend its primitive egoic habits.

Lions and tigers are cannibals, they don't get cardiovascular disease by doing what comes naturally to them.

If what you're saying is.true, then most non dual spiritual models are wrong, because most of them have an ethical component built in. Don't conflate orthodox Christianity with non dual ethical components. They are not the same.

Edited April 27, 2019 by Lister

[DrewNows]

@ListerEnlightenment isn't about meaning/purpose

It is apparent humans do still need meat to survive. If eating meat/killing animals causes you guilt then this is your problem. Humans mentally project our own experiences onto everything including animals. We do not know what it feels like to be a dog or a cow, nor do we know how exactly they interact with the world, except from what we learn from our biased human perspective. We like to assume they exhibit the same kinds of thoughts/emotions, automatically assuming our thoughts/emotions to be the only truth

I am not against practicing veganism as a means for conscious eating but would never make an identity of it 

 

[Lister]

48 minutes ago, DrewNows said:

@ListerEnlightenment isn't about meaning/purpose 

Nobody has said that enlightenment is about meaning or purpose. I said it's about disidentifying from our unconscious personal preferences. 

This entire discussion is not about meaning or purpose, it's about how veganism fits with non duality. Somebody mentioned a similar concept to divine purpose (the way things are because they are meant to happen). If you had been following the thread closely since the beginning and assimilating each person perspective then this would be obvious to you. But yet it seems we have another person bypassing the actual discussion on order to insert their assumptions.

48 minutes ago, DrewNows said:

 

It is apparent humans do still need meat to survive. 

This is not true. It's a scientifically verified fact that human beings do not need animal products for survival. Again, if you had been paying attention and informing yourself then you would have recognized that we don't need animal products, and in actual fact it's animal products that cause western borne chronic diseases to happen at the rate they are happening. There is no grey area here, all the evidence is laid out in the videos I presented and anybody can go online and check Dr. Essylstens references themselves. 

Next to thousands of peer reviewed studies that show exactly what mechanisms in animal foods cause inflammation, there are clinical trials showing that plant based diets devoid of oils and processed foods actually reverse the progression of contrary artery disease, diabetes and some cancers. It's all in the literature. So if animal products are "needed" then why did all the end stage heart disease patients who adhered to the diet survive for more than 20+ years with not one conorary event? Why did parts of rural Japan and the other "blue zones" manage to survive and be more or less disease free on a 98% plant based diet? Are you saying that the 2% of animal products they ate actually kept them in good health to 100 years old and sometimes further? 

What about the adventist 2 vegans? The healthiest population of them all? How do you explain that they came out the healthiest of all the other dietary plans in the community? 

Animal products are not needed by anyone. We know what the problem is with these ex vegans, it's a gut microbiome disbyosis issue and genetic polymorphism issue that can easily be fixed with supplementation.

If animal products are necessary then why were all of Dr. Essylstens 200+ heart disease trial patients all perfectly healthy on a whole foods plant based diet? Surely if animal products were really needed then at least one of these patients would have gotten sick. But they didn't. 

The body of evidence is so overwhelming now that healthcare organizations like Kaiser permananente in the states now advocate for a plant based diet as a way to prevent disease, rather than just treat it.

I think the combined scientific community knows more than you about this subject.

What are your credentials anyway? 

48 minutes ago, DrewNows said:

If eating meat/killing animals causes you guilt then this is your problem.

This is your assumption. Nowhere have I shamed anyone for eating meat. It's not about guilt, its about being consistent with onese self. Would you like to live in a cage where you cannot move your entire life? If not, then why are you making an animal do that just because you want a bacon sandwich? Its about the golden rule. All spiritual paths teach the golden rule. Only a person who has actually developed upto orange will resonate with what I'm saying. You have not reached that point yet. 

48 minutes ago, DrewNows said:

 

Humans mentally project our own experiences onto everything including animals. We do not know what it feels like to be a dog or a cow, nor do we know how exactly they interact with the world, except from what we learn from our biased human perspective. We like to assume they exhibit the same kinds of thoughts/emotions, automatically assuming our thoughts/emotions to be the only truth

Your statement further solidifies your ignorance.

Just watch the video I posted about factory farming and the fur trade.

What you have done is read about anthropmorphising and believe that is the truth. We don't project anything onto animals, animals are sentient. This is scientific fact and consensus since 2012. Animals are no different to humans, even pigs have the basic consciousness of a young toddler.

Lastly, animal agriculture is destroying our home, and if we don't act soon it's actually going to be your problem also. Because we created this, it was necessary for a time, but now we know better. 

Veganism requires real life research into what is true, not half baked assumptions about what we think is going on.

 

 

Edited April 27, 2019 by Lister

[DrewNows]

19 minutes ago, Lister said:

Nobody has said that enlightenment is about meaning or purpose. I said it's about disidentifying from our unconscious personal preferences. 

This entire discussion is not about meaning or purpose, it's about how veganism fits with non duality. Somebody mentioned a similar concept to divine purpose (the way things are because they are meant to happen). If you had been following the thread closely since the beginning and assimilating each person perspective then this would be obvious to you. But yet it seems we have another person bypassing the actual discussion on order to insert their assumptions.

just like how religion fits with nonduality right? you are creating meaning and making all kinds of assumptions. No enlightenment isn't about disidentifying with unconscious preferences, it is discovering the Truth of you. 

25 minutes ago, Lister said:

This is not true. It's a scientifically verified fact that human beings do not need animal products for survival. Again, if you had been paying attention and informing yourself then you would have recognized that we don't need animal products, and in actual fact it's animal products that cause western borne chronic diseases to happen at the rate they are happening. There is no grey area here, all the evidence is laid out in the videos I presented and anybody can go online and check Dr. Essylstens references themselves. 

Next to thousands of peer reviewed studies that show exactly what mechanisms in animal foods cause inflammation, there are clinical trials showing that plant based diets devoid of oils and processed foods actually reverse the progression of contrary artery disease, diabetes and some cancers. It's all in the literature. So if animal products are "needed" then why did all the end stage heart disease patients who adhered to the diet survive for more than 20+ years with not one conorary event? Why did parts of rural Japan and the other "blue zones" manage to survive and be more or less disease free on a 98% plant based diet? Are you saying that the 2% of animal products they ate actually kept them in good health to 100 years old and sometimes further? 

What about the adventist 2 vegans? The healthiest population of them all? How do you explain that they came out the healthiest of all the other dietary plans in the community? 

Animal products are not needed by anyone. We know what the problem is with these ex vegans, it's a gut microbiome disbyosis issue and genetic polymorphism issue that can easily be fixed with supplementation.

If animal products are necessary then why were all of Dr. Essylstens 200+ heart disease trial patients all perfectly healthy on a whole foods plant based diet? Surely if animal products were really needed then at least one of these patients would have gotten sick. But they didn't. 

The body of evidence is so overwhelming now that healthcare organizations like Kaiser permananente in the states now advocate for a plant based diet as a way to prevent disease, rather than just treat it.

I think the combined scientific community knows more than you about this subject.

What are your credentials anyway? 

I am looking at the human species as a whole. I see people eating meat and therefore it is "needed" 

i can only imagine how much suffering this causes you. Doesn't it suck there's so many perspectives and beliefs about what is the right foods to eat for our health? I was recently hearing about the carnivore diet from a "doctor" and it's incredible how conflicting all of the information is out there. Ive learned that the only information i can really trust is just from personal experience. 

33 minutes ago, Lister said:

This is your assumption. Nowhere have I shamed anyone for eating meat. It's not about guilt, its about being consistent with onese self. Would you like to live in a cage where you cannot move your entire life? If not, then why are you making an animal do that just because you want a bacon sandwich? Its about the golden rule. All spiritual paths teach the golden rule. Only a person who has actually developed upto orange will resonate with what I'm saying. You have not reached that point yet. 

Adopt veganism and it becomes a part of yourself, your identity and then you feel guilty when you don't act in accordance with said beliefs (sounds similar to religion right?).  And then you go again, trying to compare other species to our own. I am not saying how we treat animals is right or wrong but just saying it's how we've built society/culture, and this will continue to adapt/evolve 

34 minutes ago, Lister said:

Your statement further solidifies your ignorance.

Just watch the video I posted about factory farming and the fur trade.

What you have done is read about anthropmorphising and believe that is the truth. We don't project anything onto animals, animals are sentient. This is scientific fact and consensus since 2012. Animals are no different to humans, even pigs have the basic consciousness of a young toddler.

Lastly, animal agriculture is destroying our home. 

Veganism requires real life research into what is true, not half baked assumptions about what we think is going on.

No i have not read anything nor do i promote the abuse of animals, but here you go back to the "science handbook" as if it holds all the proof needed, ignoring the limitations/human bias. Do you know what exactly creates suffering? Is it not possible to train the mind not to identify with pain? Sorry animals don't live by human logic

[Lister]

 

[Lister]

13 minutes ago, DrewNows said:

No enlightenment isn't about disidentifying with unconscious preferences, it is discovering the Truth of you. 

What do you think is left when unconscious attachment to personal preferences is no longer the case? The result is = the truth of you. 

You disclose your ignorance about what it means to be enlightened because you couldn't correlate non attachment to the conditioned ego with the authentic being.

15 minutes ago, DrewNows said:

i can only imagine how much suffering this causes you. Doesn't it suck there's so many perspectives and beliefs about what is the right foods to eat for our health? I was recently hearing about the carnivore diet from a "doctor" and it's incredible how conflicting all of the information is out there. Ive learned that the only information i can really trust is just from personal experience. 

Like I said, I have no inner turmoil about the truth of what we should be eating. I have already stated (if you had bothered to contemplate my words) that science informs us, and that we cannot argue with science. Yes there are a lot of different "opinions" on the net about what to eat. And many GP will still say plant based veganism is extreme. But those opinions are divorced from the body of scientific evidence. The scientific consensus is that the western diet is a highly inflammatory diet that is causing most of the chronic illnesses. You're free to go by your own experience because of the conflicting opinions in the field of health, but the science is published and done and is clear. It's important to be able to interpret the science properly, for example the American 2015 dietary guidelines on cholesterol were adjusted because the American Egg board lobbied for it and deliberatly took one part of the abstract of a study out of context. Most of what you hear in the keto community is twisted lies. The point about low cholesterol is another lie taken from a study done on cancer patients where a correlation was found between their depression and their naturally low blood lipids. The keto community took that and used it as another justification for their diet in order to sell books. The two biggest researchers involved in keto are employed by a clinic who charge huge amounts of money for useless keto diabetes programmes that claim to be able to manage diabetes But also admit that they cannot fix glucose tolerance (cure deiabetes). Plant based diet has already been shown to cure diabetes already. 

24 minutes ago, DrewNows said:

 Adopt veganism and it becomes a part of yourself, your identity and then you feel guilty when you don't act in accordance with said beliefs (sounds similar to religion right?). 

No. Veganism will look like a religion to the blue structure because the blue structure is.about guilt. Guilt is turning unresolved childhood pain onto oneself as a learned behaviour as a consequence of social indoctrination. Veganism is not an identity, it's a consequence of being able to think properly having sorted out our internal problems. Most people after examining their values would have to go vegan. Again, it's very simple, would you prefer to spend your life in a cage unable to move? If not then why do you expect an animal to live like that just so you can have a bacon sandwich? 

28 minutes ago, DrewNows said:

No i have not read anything nor do i promote the abuse of animals, 

You disclose that you haven't sorted out your internal issues. You clearly do support the abuse of animals if you consume their products. 

Think deeply about this for a while. If you buy meat, eggs and dairy you are financially and publically supporting an industry that exploits animals.

36 minutes ago, DrewNows said:

"science handbook" as if it holds all the proof needed, ignoring the limitations/human bias. Do you know what exactly creates suffering? Is it not possible to train the mind not to identify with pain? Sorry animals don't live by human logic

Animals don't live by logic. But they are sentient. They feel pain, they can solve basic problems, they have emotions. You dont even need science to point this out. Do you have a pet? Does your dog express joy at being let out to run? Does it express anticipation when dinner is being served up?

These are human traits also. These are mammals that share the same emotional bodies as us. All you need to do is take your sceptic goggles off an look at how things actually are. You will see (once you have done the inner work) that veganism is your only choice. 

[DrewNows]

3 hours ago, Lister said:

What do you think is left when unconscious attachment to personal preferences is no longer the case? The result is = the truth of you. 

Or maybe just a nihilistic bear

You disclose your ignorance about what it means to be enlightened because you couldn't correlate non attachment to the conditioned ego with the authentic being.

i don’t know what I don’t know but you seem to be doing a lot of assuming  

Like I said, I have no inner turmoil about the truth of what we should be eating. I have already stated (if you had bothered to contemplate my words) that science informs us, and that we cannot argue with science. Yes there are a lot of different "opinions" on the net about what to eat. And many GP will still say plant based veganism is extreme. But those opinions are divorced from the body of scientific evidence. The scientific consensus is that the western diet is a highly inflammatory diet that is causing most of the chronic illnesses. You're free to go by your own experience because of the conflicting opinions in the field of health, but the science is published and done and is clear. It's important to be able to interpret the science properly, for example the American 2015 dietary guidelines on cholesterol were adjusted because the American Egg board lobbied for it and deliberatly took one part of the abstract of a study out of context. Most of what you hear in the keto community is twisted lies. The point about low cholesterol is another lie taken from a study done on cancer patients where a correlation was found between their depression and their naturally low blood lipids. The keto community took that and used it as another justification for their diet in order to sell books. The two biggest researchers involved in keto are employed by a clinic who charge huge amounts of money for useless keto diabetes programmes that claim to be able to manage diabetes But also admit that they cannot fix glucose tolerance (cure deiabetes). Plant based diet has already been shown to cure diabetes already. 

Science can back up just about anything. Don’t shove your blue devil ? propaganda on me, I learn to do and think for myself 

No. Veganism will look like a religion to the blue structure because the blue structure is.about guilt. Guilt is turning unresolved childhood pain onto oneself as a learned behaviour as a consequence of social indoctrination. Veganism is not an identity, it's a consequence of being able to think properly having sorted out our internal problems. Most people after examining their values would have to go vegan. Again, it's very simple, would you prefer to spend your life in a cage unable to move? If not then why do you expect an animal to live like that just so you can have a bacon sandwich? 

No choice, to cage or not cage. No  games of what if I were an animal. You can only eat You. Animals do not think or feel mistreated, it’s only you. To become more conscious at the collective level will lead to a more sustainable planet. To become more conscious means to look inward and questions our own beliefs.  Many vegans don’t actually evolve their diet through inward selfish/less means and this creates another division/obstacle 

You disclose that you haven't sorted out your internal issues. You clearly do support the abuse of animals if you consume their products. 

Yup I both do and don’t support it 

Think deeply about this for a while. If you buy meat, eggs and dairy you are financially and publically supporting an industry that exploits animals.

I am these Industries but these Industries haven’t figured it out yet 

Animals don't live by logic. But they are sentient. They feel pain, they can solve basic problems, they have emotions. You dont even need science to point this out. Do you have a pet? Does your dog express joy at being let out to run? Does it express anticipation when dinner is being served up?

plants are sentient. Dogs are abundantly selfish/loving but they don’t act this way toward a squirrel 

These are human traits also. These are mammals that share the same emotional bodies as us. All you need to do is take your sceptic goggles off an look at how things actually are. You will see (once you have done the inner work) that veganism is your only choice. 

“Emotional bodies”...right. We can all learn to take responsibility for ourselves and stop automatically trusting religion science society and culture. Veganism will not take me alive! ?

 

[now is forever]

9 hours ago, Lister said:

This is the prime example of a spiritual ego, using spirituality to defend its primitive egoic habits.

Lions and tigers are cannibals, they don't get cardiovascular disease by doing what comes naturally to them.

If what you're saying is.true, then most non dual spiritual models are wrong, because most of them have an ethical component built in. Don't conflate orthodox Christianity with non dual ethical components. They are not the same.

you explain yourself very well as everything is spirituality you transcend yours perfectly. it’s all your projection all your own karma. only you talking to yourself. did you read it closely? of course are all meat eaters cannibals but lions don’t have the level of awareness that humans have - they don’t realize they have an ego they also are no industrialized mass murderers. i‘m not talking about christianity here, this is about shadows - and shadows are more about psychology not about christianity in fact i don’t know much about christianity.

Edited April 28, 2019 by now is forever

[kieranperez]

On 4/22/2019 at 2:38 AM, now is forever said:

kill the brokkoli ?

I couldn’t help it

[Lister]

7 hours ago, DrewNows said:

 

So basically you have no argument and resort to this when you are exposed as not knowing what you are talking about.

[Lister]

4 hours ago, now is forever said:

you explain yourself very well as everything is spirituality you transcend yours perfectly. it’s all your projection all your own karma. only you talking to yourself. did you read it closely? of course are all meat eaters cannibals but lions don’t have the level of awareness that humans have - they don’t realize they have an ego they also are no industrialized mass murderers. i‘m not talking about christianity here, this is about shadows - and shadows are more about psychology not about christianity in fact i don’t know much about christianity.

Not sure how to reply to this. I don't wish to offend you personally but this seems like word salad.

[Lister]

@Farnaby Seems that there are some "non dualist" get triggered by a conversation on veganism. Lots of attachment to meat eating, selective bias, relying on 1st person assumption only, word salad, contradiction. 

Make up your own mind based on what you see already in this discussion. 

Edited April 28, 2019 by Lister