Non-Duality and Veganism

[now is forever]

27 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

@now is forever Do you realize that you're condemning an entire people? Hunting and fishing are deeply spiritual practices to the Native Americans and always have been. Driving a car, using electricity, all harm mother earth much more than conscientiously taking the life of an animal that lives in nature. 

no i didn’t condamn anyone, just described how it would be different if we would handle it different. you are condemning yourself, because you know that it’s partially true, deep down inside, you know, that’s why it tastes bitter and you are not used to eat the bitter parts anymore.

who killed the buffaloes? it’s different now, you have to accept that!

Edited April 23, 2019 by now is forever

[mandyjw]

@now is forever  We still have fish, deer and moose. I once got within 6 feet of a moose accidentally. She was sick with meningitis and wasn't acting like a normal moose. She sort of bluff charged at me but never touched me. We killed off the wolves. Managing populations carefully is our duty now. 

[now is forever]

11 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

@now is forever  We still have fish, deer and moose. I once got within 6 feet of a moose accidentally. She was sick with meningitis and wasn't acting like a normal moose. She sort of bluff charged at me but never touched me. We killed off the wolves. Managing populations carefully is our duty now. 

yes, then you know that it’s about not killing of all animals but keeping the balance that was destroyed. or even further reestablishing it.

it also means indians are settled now like other tribes. it’s about adapting to that. i always thought it was not only about the meat but also about the herbs and eatable weeds and roots.

Edited April 23, 2019 by now is forever

[mandyjw]

@now is forever Maybe the settlers are the ones who need to adapt. 

[now is forever]

3 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

@now is forever Maybe the settlers are the ones who need to adapt. 

yes

[molosku]

On 22/04/2019 at 3:40 AM, Leo Gura said:

@Farnaby You do realize, right, that a large percentage of the population requires meat to stay alive? You cannot survive in Northern climates on vegetables alone.

This is not a hard limit, but it is a reality for millions of people. 

Citation needed. How many people absolutely "require" meat in northern climates? What is your definition of "northern climates"?

Surely there are many systems that push meat on people all around the world, thusly making meat consumption "necessary" within the system (large amount of peoples salary depending on pork, chiken and fish like in Asia) , but if a revolution came and changed the system, an alternative would appear. 

 

[purerogue]

5 hours ago, Lister said:

All of these points have already been addressed by myself and Dr. Essylesten. What you have done is not actually digested my argument, but created your own version of an argument you imagine I am advancing.

Watch the video I posted. That will answer all of these points. For example we have evidence of indigenous tribes who smoke but don't develop heart disease. How is that possible? Because they eat a plant based diet. 

I already said that grass fed is irrelevant because we now have mechanisms that cause the disease. All meat contains neu5gc, TMAO, heme iron, and inhibit the bodies ability to create nitric oxide.

Sticky blood from cholesterol is just a player, it's inflammation and lack of nitric oxide that creates oxidized LDL that is the cause of cardiac events.

You failed to also address the United nations position that animal ag is the biggest contributer to greenhouse gases. 

 

 

 

I did not fail to address anything, I answered to your replays to me, what ever silly stuff you want to come up to prove that you do not talk allot of nonsense is not of my problem anymore, , I do not have all day to jump to 100 different topics that you drag me into saying that we had discussion about them, when we did not. 

Edited April 23, 2019 by purerogue

[Lister]

15 minutes ago, purerogue said:

I did not fail to address anything, I answered to your replays to me, what ever silly stuff you want to come up to prove that you do not talk allot of nonsense is not of my problem anymore, , I do not have all day to jump to 100 different topics that you drag me into saying that we had discussion about them, when we did not. 

Ok.

[Lister]

18 minutes ago, purerogue said:

I did not fail to address anything, I answered to your replays to me, what ever silly stuff you want to come up to prove that you do not talk allot of nonsense is not of my problem anymore, , I do not have all day to jump to 100 different topics that you drag me into saying that we had discussion about them, when we did not. 

It sounds to me that you weren't interested in having a mature debate, but only venting your assumptions. You might want to clean up the way you talk to other people during an oline discussion. 

[Lister]

6 hours ago, mandyjw said:

@now is forever Do you realize that you're condemning an entire people? Hunting and fishing are deeply spiritual practices to the Native Americans and always have been. Driving a car, using electricity, all harm mother earth much more than conscientiously taking the life of an animal that lives in nature. 

Yes lots of things harm the earth. Animal ag (a completely unnecessary and cruel industry) Is responsible for the greatest amount of harm at this time. The UN estimates that getting shot of animal ag would cut greenhouse gas emissions by upto 80%. 

That will save the planet overnight.

Veganism isn't about not engaging in harm, it's about reducing harm as reasonably as possible.

What else have we got at our disposal to end the western world's number 1 killer and save the planet? Veganism is the only option we have. 

 

[mandyjw]

@Lister Let the land go back to what it was and live off the land. Hunt and fish and gather, and farm unobtrusively. Back to how our grandparents lived or the Native Americans lived. 

http://indians.org/articles/native-american-spirituality.html

[Lister]

14 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

@Lister Let the land go back to what it was and live off the land. Hunt and fish and gather, and farm unobtrusively. Back to how our grandparents lived or the Native Americans lived. 

http://indians.org/articles/native-american-spirituality.html

That cannot happen. Too many people inhabiting the planet now. 

I suggest doing some real research rather than reading opinion pieces that romanticize and play blue mental gymnastics just so that it can continue to feel justified about eating meat.

I've never seen a keto advocate be able to think beyond blue. 

[Dumb Enlightened]

On 21/04/2019 at 5:36 PM, Farnaby said:

Hi everyone!

There's a question that has been on my mind for a long time since I got interested in spirituality, buddhism, etc:
If duality is just an illusion and everything is just One or actually everything just "is", why kill (or pay others to kill) animals in order to eat when it's not necessary? 

I read that buddhists aren't necessarily vegetarian or vegan because they often get their food from other people and it would be disrespectful to refuse food just because it's meat or fish. That sounds like a good reason. But what about everyone else who doesn't live like a buddhist monk and actually goes to the supermarket to choose their food?

Wouldn't it be more coherent with the whole "idea" of unconditional love, acceptance, respect, etc., to avoid killing (especially in the way it's done nowadays in the food industry) unless necessary?

I'd really appreciate reading your point of view on this matter

Thank you!

That's the mind trying to turn everything into a religion, I've fallen into the trap of thinking I should go vegan in order to awaken 
I've found out later that I like to eat meat, I've been eating since I was a kid, so why to pretend that I care about the animals when I actually don't. Unconditional love is something that only the Self/God can understand, if the devil tries to be unconditionally loving its deluding itself.

Trying to judge if eating meat is right or wrong is something that only the mind will do, the Self loves you despite what you eat,

[mandyjw]

@Lister It cannot happen everywhere but there are places where it can and does happen.

Question for you, is a spiral linear?

[Farnaby]

3 hours ago, Dumb Enlightened said:

That's the mind trying to turn everything into a religion, I've fallen into the trap of thinking I should go vegan in order to awaken 
I've found out later that I like to eat meat, I've been eating since I was a kid, so why to pretend that I care about the animals when I actually don't. Unconditional love is something that only the Self/God can understand, if the devil tries to be unconditionally loving its deluding itself.

Trying to judge if eating meat is right or wrong is something that only the mind will do, the Self loves you despite what you eat,

I understand what you're saying, although I see it as there's a part of me who does care about animals and since there's no need for me to eat any animal I choose to follow that part and see how it feels. What I mean is I wouldn't say I'm pretending that I care. A part of me does care a lot. This doesn't mean there aren't things I do that potentially hurt animals, but I choose to reduce the amount of those actions.

Maybe that's just my ego speaking, but that's also valid for those who come up with any theory on why they choose to eat meat. Of course right/wrong are subjective and moral concepts, but if we say that we are the whole universe and science tells us there are ways to reduce the negative consequences of our impact, why not follow that instead of continuing to do things that are proven to be harmful. 
 

[Lister]

2 hours ago, Farnaby said:

I understand what you're saying, although I see it as there's a part of me who does care about animals and since there's no need for me to eat any animal I choose to follow that part and see how it feels. What I mean is I wouldn't say I'm pretending that I care. A part of me does care a lot. This doesn't mean there aren't things I do that potentially hurt animals, but I choose to reduce the amount of those actions.

Maybe that's just my ego speaking, but that's also valid for those who come up with any theory on why they choose to eat meat. Of course right/wrong are subjective and moral concepts, but if we say that we are the whole universe and science tells us there are ways to reduce the negative consequences of our impact, why not follow that instead of continuing to do things that are proven to be harmful. 
 

Yes. We can just let a gangrene leg rot because the self loves it anyway.

This is not enlightenment, it's just a trick that stops the mind from making value judgements. The result feels very nice and people get attached to it and call it enlightenment. But it's actually a dissociated state that causes more harm to the person and others around them until they snap out of it.

[Farnaby]

18 hours ago, Lister said:

Yes. We can just let a gangrene leg rot because the self loves it anyway.

This is not enlightenment, it's just a trick that stops the mind from making value judgements. The result feels very nice and people get attached to it and call it enlightenment. But it's actually a dissociated state that causes more harm to the person and others around them until they snap out of it.

This is what I noticed too. A lot of people seem to justify absolutely everything just because it occurs in the universe, without taking into consideration that there definitely are actions we could avoid and reduce some of the harm we cause. 

IMO saying: "everything is human, everything is OK so I will just continue indulging in any behavior I want in this particular moment" doesn't sound enlightened at all. It sounds as egoic as saying "I'm a better person than you because I don't eat animals". 

[Dumb Enlightened]

On 23/04/2019 at 4:01 PM, Farnaby said:

I understand what you're saying, although I see it as there's a part of me who does care about animals and since there's no need for me to eat any animal I choose to follow that part and see how it feels. What I mean is I wouldn't say I'm pretending that I care. A part of me does care a lot. This doesn't mean there aren't things I do that potentially hurt animals, but I choose to reduce the amount of those actions.

Maybe that's just my ego speaking, but that's also valid for those who come up with any theory on why they choose to eat meat. Of course right/wrong are subjective and moral concepts, but if we say that we are the whole universe and science tells us there are ways to reduce the negative consequences of our impact, why not follow that instead of continuing to do things that are proven to be harmful. 
 

There is a paradigm of understating where we believe in death, we believe that death is a possibility, therefore we believe that if we kill an animal to eat, we are killing life. But once you realize that death is not a possibility, that life cannot be killed, it doesn't make any difference.

[Lister]

5 hours ago, Dumb Enlightened said:

There is a paradigm of understating where we believe in death, we believe that death is a possibility, therefore we believe that if we kill an animal to eat, we are killing life. But once you realize that death is not a possibility, that life cannot be killed, it doesn't make any difference.

So you are saying that there is no organism that has a nervous system and emotions that suffers emotional turmoil, disease, pain, suffering, just so that you can have a bacon sandwich? 

And that this "other" sentient being is not also a fragment of you? 

How do you feel about slavery? Do you think that doesn't make any difference to you or us? Maybe you would like to go back 500 years when slavery was "normal", imagine yourself in that position where someone is exploiting your life and energy and taking a way your freedom to live? Maybe you would like for us as a species to return to that state? 

Of course, it's doesn't matter, right? So I'm sure you will be ok with that situation where you are trapped in a pig enclosure and cannot move your entire life? It's all ok, isn't it? 

 

Edited April 25, 2019 by Lister

[Farnaby]

9 hours ago, Dumb Enlightened said:

There is a paradigm of understating where we believe in death, we believe that death is a possibility, therefore we believe that if we kill an animal to eat, we are killing life. But once you realize that death is not a possibility, that life cannot be killed, it doesn't make any difference.

Hmm, I understand your point of view, but it sounds like mental gymnastics to me in order to justify the action of eating animals. Maybe in the larger picture of the Universe, it doesn't make a difference, but it certainly does for the animals that are being kept in cages, tortured, separated from their babies and killed. 

I bet if someone came to your house threatening your family, you wouldn't just accept him/her torturing and killing your family members, just because you realized that death is not a possibility and it doesn't make any difference. I'm sure you would do something to avoid it, even if this decision comes from your ego.