Non-Duality and Veganism

[SgtPepper]

@Lister I watched a little bit (20 minutes), but I've heard it all before and I saw where he was going. I don't believe in the cholesterol hypothesis which has received valid criticism. 

I do not support replacing B12 vitamins with a supplement. B12 supplements are synthetic and ineffective in comparison to just eating real food. and actually I am 100% positive, humans got their b12 from meat and dairy. Humans have been eating meat for 2.5million years and there has never been a vegan civilization. All vegetarian societies get their B12 from eggs, cheese, yogurt, and milk.

Are you sure B12 is the only thing that needs to be supplemented? I see people take EPA & DHA supplements, Vitamin D supplements (which can be had from raw animal foods), iodine supplements, iron supplements, zinc, creatine, etc. 

Low cholesterol is linked to multiple health problems including depression and early death. 

Here's a farmer who explains it :

In addition, here's an article:

https://theconversation.com/ordering-the-vegetarian-meal-theres-more-animal-blood-on-your-hands-4659

Quote from the article:

Quote

Replacing red meat with grain products leads to many more sentient animal deaths, far greater animal suffering and significantly more environmental degradation. Protein obtained from grazing livestock costs far fewer lives per kilogram: it is a more humane, ethical and environmentally-friendly dietary option.

1 hour ago, Lister said:

The monocrops you mention to do feed most of the livestock we feed anyway. So there is that to consider.

 

Right, that is why I eat grass-fed beef, dairy, and pasture raised eggs because it supports sustainable farming practices, animals, and in consequence human beings.

Edited April 22, 2019 by SgtPepper

[Lister]

@SgtPepper Essylsten has 2 clinical trials proving his diet reverses heart disease.

Where is the disconnect here? We cannot argue with science. 

There is no argument on the environmental issue. The science is clear. Both the UN and the world health organization agree that animal ag cannot be sustained. Grass fed is a red herring, we cannot feed 10bn people on pastured livestock.

I'm going to suggest the who and the UN have a better view of the big picture than a farmer and a nutritionist connected with the Weston a price foundation. 

 

Edited April 22, 2019 by Lister

[Lister]

@SgtPepper Everyone should be supplementing with d3, not just vegans. The dha thing is a genetic polymorphism issue for conversion, another red herring. 

[Lister]

@SgtPepper Where do you think your pasture raised animals obtain their b12?

Even they cannot make it anymore because there is no cobalt in the grasslands.

It's given to them from the farmers. So yes, you're taking a synthetic b12 supplement when you eat your steak.

It may not even be cholesterol that is an issue, but cholesterol is a player in heart disease. Animal foods destroy the ability of the body to create nitric oxide, so endothelial cell and oxidized LDL is what create heart disease a long with the inflammation caused by gut bacteria that create TMAO. There is also a molecule found in all animal products called neu5gc, which is found at the site of plaques and in cancer tissue.

Epidemiological evidence show the more animal products we eat, the higher risk of disease.

The science is so clear that it's almost mainstream now. Canada were the first to not have their dietary recommendations dictated to them by industry. 

It's only a matter of time now. 

Edited April 22, 2019 by Lister

[SgtPepper]

4 minutes ago, Lister said:

@SgtPepper Essylsten has 2 clinical trials proving his diet reverses heart disease.

Where is the disconnect here? We cannot argue with science. 

2 clinical trials is nothing when it comes to science. and Humans have been eating meat for 2.5 million years, gonna need more than two studies to convince me.

27 minutes ago, Lister said:

@SgtPepper Everyone should be supplementing with d3, not just vegans. The dha thing is a genetic polymorphism issue for conversion, another red herring. 

if you ate raw animal foods, you wouldn't need to. the conversion rate is low and is not possible for everyone. 

19 minutes ago, Lister said:

@SgtPepper Where do you think your pasture raised animals obtain their b12?

Even they cannot make it anymore because there is no cobalt in the grasslands.

It's given to them from the farmers. So yes, you're taking a synthetic b12 supplement when you eat your steak.

It may not even be cholesterol that is an issue, but cholesterol is a player in heart disease. Animal foods destroy the ability of the body to create nitric oxide, so endothelial cell and oxidized LDL is what create heart disease a long with the inflammation caused by gut bacteria that create TMAO. There is also a molecule found in all animal products called neu5gc, which is found at the site of plaques and in cancer tissue.

Epidemiological evidence show the more animal products we eat, the higher risk of disease.

The science is so clear that it's almost mainstream now. Canada were the first to not have their dietary recommendations dictated to them by industry. 

It's only a matter of time now. 

Animals have gut bacteria that make B12 in their gut (therefore not synthetic). So its still a more "natural" form than through lab processes. 

Those studies on animal products don't account for high quality unprocessed meat, so they're pretty much invalid.

They look pretty health to me

https://www.wired.com/2012/09/milk-meat-and-blood-how-diet-drives-natural-selection-in-the-maasai/

Quote

The Maasai are a pastoralist tribe living in Kenya and Northern Tanzania. Their traditional diet consists almost entirely of milk, meat, and blood. Two thirds of their calories come from fat, and they consume 600 - 2000 mg of cholesterol a day. To put that number in perspective, the American Heart Association recommends consuming under 300 mg of cholesterol a day.__ In spite of a high fat, high cholesterol diet, the Maasai have low rates of diseases typically associated with such diets.__ They tend to have low blood pressure, their overall cholesterol levels are low, they have low incidences of cholesterol gallstones, as well as low rates of coronary artery diseases such as atherosclerosis.

 

[Lister]

@SgtPepper Its not just 2 clinical trials. The entire body of literature points to animal products as the culprit. The entire scientific community are almost at a consensus. 

Does any of this mean anything to you? 

Would you like to do some shadow work?

You're not convinced with 2 clinical trials, but a few opinion pieces and some false info about the Massai on a pro meat blog are enough to convince you?

Humans have indeed been eating meat for millennia. That's an appeal to tradition, which is another fallacy. Heart disease and cancer have always been a part of our history. Especially for the Massai (average life expectancy of 41 years : they just don't have the time to develop full blown heart disease and be killed by it - but it's there) and the innuit. 

It's not about high quality meats, we have the mechanisms now regardless of the quality of the animal, all animal foods contain TMAO, neu5gc, heme iron, and destroy artery function which creates oxidized LDL cholesterol which is raised by consumption of saturated fat. 

Your beliefs about b12 are wrong. The livestock need cobalt in the soil to interact with intrinsic fact of to create b12. You're taking a synthetic b12 supplement whether you like it or not.

We can convert ALA to DHA no problem. The only people with an issue have genetic issues that can now be screened for and fixed.

You didn't respond to my environmental points. 

Edited April 22, 2019 by Lister

[purerogue]

You are all being silly, I can endless lists of people who are vegetarians and die young, just as meat eaters, or vegetarians who have long life span and meat eaters who have long life span, if it all would be such one sided argument there would be no discussion to be had. 

 

[Lister]

1 hour ago, purerogue said:

You are all being silly, I can endless lists of people who are vegetarians and die young, just as meat eaters, or vegetarians who have long life span and meat eaters who have long life span, if it all would be such one sided argument there would be no discussion to be had. 

 

Do you know anything about statistics?

Do you know that most people over the age of 60 have heart disease, and a vast majority of those people are on statins to manage it?

Most people in the West, who eat the western diet develop dementia, heart disease or diabetes (or all 3).

Do some research, most of us don't live a long healthy lifespan in comparison to populations who consume a whole foods plant based diet.

[SerpaeTetra]

On 4/21/2019 at 3:40 PM, Leo Gura said:

@Farnaby You do realize, right, that a large percentage of the population requires meat to stay alive? You cannot survive in Northern climates on vegetables alone.

This is not a hard limit, but it is a reality for millions of people. And people who come from cold climates have corresponding genetics and culture. Cultures and peoples are adapted to different climates and diets.

Move south then.  If Humans in Northern climates were suddenly required to eat other Humans in order to survive, I'm pretty sure most people would agree there is plenty of room elsewhere to move.  

 

Even if meat it is required for a longer healthier life, is it just?  I'm quite sure I can live plant-based till I'm 60-70.  Could it possibly cut 10 years off my life?  I  suppose for certain genetic-types its possible (I have no idea on this topic but I'm open to either possibility).  If I was in a world with only one other human, my neighbor, and by eating him, I could possibly add 20% to my life expectancy, should I do it?

 

I'm not critical of anyone, as I'm sure I have eaten more meat than many old ladies who have eaten meat for their entire life.  But these are questions I have for myself.  

 

[purerogue]

32 minutes ago, Lister said:

Do you know anything about statistics?

Do you know that most people over the age of 60 have heart disease, and a vast majority of those people are on statins to manage it?

Most people in the West, who eat the western diet develop dementia, heart disease or diabetes (or all 3).

Do some research, most of us don't live a long healthy lifespan in comparison to populations who consume a whole foods plant based diet.

I do not want to go into details to show why you are looking at wrong things.

Most people develop some kind of problems when they age,just because one food has higher risk to make you develop one disease does not mean that other food does not have 100 other problems it can cause, for your surprise countries that eat meat have longest lifespan, countries that have strong vegetarian base do not even have good enough medical care to make any statistic of health problems,  except their life span. 

And problem in things you mentioned is not even meat itself, but eating to much of it, or rather eating something that you can hardly call meat. 

If you want to define meat eaters as people who eat fries, pizza, burgers, kfc chicken  then I do not even see point to have a discussion with you.

 

Edited April 23, 2019 by purerogue

[now is forever]

1 hour ago, purerogue said:

I do not want to go into details to show why you are looking at wrong things.

Most people develop some kind of problems when they age,just because one food has higher risk to make you develop one disease does not mean that other food does not have 100 other problems it can cause, for your surprise countries that eat meat have longest lifespan, countries that have strong vegetarian base do not even have good enough medical care to make any statistic of health problems,  except their life span. 

And problem in things you mentioned is not even meat itself, but eating to much of it, or rather eating something that you can hardly call meat. 

 

yes the problem is the onesidedness of perspective always only seeing one side of the saussage always because the other side has already vanished in our mouth and the sausage gets shorter and shorter.

a plant based diet with a piece of meat from time to time might be the most healthy alternative regarding all important nutritions without supplementing them. what is similarly on the line though is chewing on  muscles pieces of other beings with nerves, beings that love their children, beings that can get hurt and scream, beings that are warm with a pounding heart, beings that love you for touching them because they don’t know the hand that feeds is the hand that kills - it’s about the perversion of that. if they knew they‘d probably run, but they don’t even have hands to free themselves, we don’t give them a chance.

so yes it’s probably utopian to stop everyone from eating meat, but the market could be regulated the farms could have to provide them with some more animal rights and everyone could watch some documentaries about slaughtery and how animals are treated and reflect on meat consumption while eating a piece of meat and see if they still want to afterwards. could do that in school for one whole month, and i want to see how many will still choose to eat meat afterwards.

no but not our children, it’s so cruel! yes honey little calf we go to mc donald’s after school, you’ve earned that.

Edited April 23, 2019 by now is forever

[Lister]

41 minutes ago, purerogue said:

I do not want to go into details to show why you are looking at wrong things.

Most people develop some kind of problems when they age,just because one food has higher risk to make you develop one disease does not mean that other food does not have 100 other problems it can cause, for your surprise countries that eat meat have longest lifespan, countries that have strong vegetarian base do not even have good enough medical care to make any statistic of health problems,  except their life span. 

And problem in things you mentioned is not even meat itself, but eating to much of it, or rather eating something that you can hardly call meat. 

If you want to define meat eaters as people who eat fries, pizza, burgers, kfc chicken  then I do not even see point to have a discussion with you.

 

Why am I looking at things wrongly? Ok, so a little bit of red meat once or twice per week  may not do much harm. As in the case of the blue zones okinawa. But for end stage heart disease patients this is a big deal.

The best stats we have don't show any problems eating plants. 

But being yellow as you are I assume you're interested in the bigger picture? How are we going to sustain nearly 10 bn people using animal ag?

Edited April 23, 2019 by Lister

[purerogue]

Just now, Lister said:

Why am I looking at things wrongly? Ok, so a little bit of red meat once or twice per week  may not do much harm. As in the case of the blue zones okinawa. But for end stage gear disease patients this is a big deal.

But being yellow as you are I assume you're interested in the bigger picture? How are we going to sustain nearly 10 bn people using animal ag?

This is  like wasting time in youtube comment section.

Quote

Why am I looking at things wrongly? 

-Because you are picking some very narrow arguments and putting whole group in this narrow argument , not even that, your argument itself has to many flaws, starting from argument "most people over the age of 60 have heart disease" , well there are many things that cause hearth diseases that just so happen to be prevalent in current times, like stress, sedentary lifestyle, junk food, smoking,alcohol  and so on.

Quote

Ok, so a little bit of red meat once or twice per week  may not do much harm

   You know there are more then just one meat type

 

Quote

But for end stage gear disease patients this is a big deal.

Yes it is, what is your point? 

Quote

But being yellow as you are I assume you're interested in the bigger picture? How are we going to sustain nearly 10 bn people using animal ag?

Idk where you got idea that I think that people should only eat animals, but for basic needs we are already doing quite good with 7 bn people, actually we are putting allot of meat in unhealthy industries, so if you want to fight something start with it, not meat itself. 

[Lister]

1 hour ago, purerogue said:

 If you want to define meat eaters as people who eat fries, pizza, burgers, kfc chicken  then I do not even see point to have a discussion with you.

 

 

3 hours ago, purerogue said:

I can endless lists of people who are vegetarians and die young,

You're actually guilty of making the error you accuse me of : generalizing.

We're talking about veganism as a way to sustain life on the planet, and a whole foods plant based diet as a healthy choice.

Vegetairans and vegans do indeed get sick. But vegetarians and vegans also eat junk food and oils.

We need to seperate out the evidence, and this is why Essylstens work is critical, because he has shown that a whole food plant based diet is healthier than an omnivore, vegan or vegetarian diet.

We can of course chose to destroy our health on a cheap and lazy vegan diet. But it's not our individual choice to continue to eat meat with the systemic issues we face because of animal ag.

 

[Lister]

33 minutes ago, purerogue said:

This is  like wasting time in youtube comment section.

-Because you are picking some very narrow arguments and putting whole group in this narrow argument , not even that, your argument itself has to many flaws, starting from argument "most people over the age of 60 have heart disease" , well there are many things that cause hearth diseases that just so happen to be prevalent in current times, like stress, sedentary lifestyle, junk food, smoking,alcohol  and so on.

   You know there are more then just one meat type

 

Yes it is, what is your point? 

Idk where you got idea that I think that people should only eat animals, but for basic needs we are already doing quite good with 7 bn people, actually we are putting allot of meat in unhealthy industries, so if you want to fight something start with it, not meat itself. 

All of these points have already been addressed by myself and Dr. Essylesten. What you have done is not actually digested my argument, but created your own version of an argument you imagine I am advancing.

Watch the video I posted. That will answer all of these points. For example we have evidence of indigenous tribes who smoke but don't develop heart disease. How is that possible? Because they eat a plant based diet. 

I already said that grass fed is irrelevant because we now have mechanisms that cause the disease. All meat contains neu5gc, TMAO, heme iron, and inhibit the bodies ability to create nitric oxide.

Sticky blood from cholesterol is just a player, it's inflammation and lack of nitric oxide that creates oxidized LDL that is the cause of cardiac events.

You failed to also address the United nations position that animal ag is the biggest contributer to greenhouse gases. 

 

 

 

Edited April 23, 2019 by Lister

[now is forever]

oh i want to throw in a german doctor who was also promoting plant based especially wholegrain diet. 

dr max otto brucker - he also wrote some books about allergies and nutrition. it’s about the junk in the food and the good parts we throw away.

Edited April 23, 2019 by now is forever

[Shaun]

@Leo Gura

Bhahahahaha...

What a fucking a devil!

 

 

Who's the real devil here?

Edited April 23, 2019 by Shaun

[mandyjw]

@now is forever Do you realize that you're condemning an entire people? Hunting and fishing are deeply spiritual practices to the Native Americans and always have been. Driving a car, using electricity, all harm mother earth much more than conscientiously taking the life of an animal that lives in nature. 

[now is forever]

4 minutes ago, Shaun said:

 

Who's the real devil here?

yeah let’s eat him...

[Rilles]

3 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

@now is forever Do you realize that you're condemning an entire people? Hunting and fishing are deeply spiritual practices to the Native Americans and always have been. Driving a car, using electricity, all harm mother earth much more than conscientiously taking the life of an animal that lives in nature. 

You think the Native peoples of America would join in the party of the daily holocaust of animals which they find sacred, they would tear their hair out at the atrocities we commit everyday. Dont kid yourself by comparing Natives to Western modern culture.