Non-Duality and Veganism

[Farnaby]

Hi everyone!

There's a question that has been on my mind for a long time since I got interested in spirituality, buddhism, etc:
If duality is just an illusion and everything is just One or actually everything just "is", why kill (or pay others to kill) animals in order to eat when it's not necessary? 

I read that buddhists aren't necessarily vegetarian or vegan because they often get their food from other people and it would be disrespectful to refuse food just because it's meat or fish. That sounds like a good reason. But what about everyone else who doesn't live like a buddhist monk and actually goes to the supermarket to choose their food?

Wouldn't it be more coherent with the whole "idea" of unconditional love, acceptance, respect, etc., to avoid killing (especially in the way it's done nowadays in the food industry) unless necessary?

I'd really appreciate reading your point of view on this matter

Thank you!

[Leo Gura]

@Farnaby You do realize, right, that a large percentage of the population requires meat to stay alive? You cannot survive in Northern climates on vegetables alone.

This is not a hard limit, but it is a reality for millions of people. And people who come from cold climates have corresponding genetics and culture. Cultures and peoples are adapted to different climates and diets.

[Paul92]

@Leo Gura But Leo, surely it doesn't matter if people die anyway? They don't exist!

[Farnaby]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Farnaby You do realize, right, that a large percentage of the population requires meat to stay alive? You cannot survive in Northern climates on vegetables alone.

This is not a hard limit, but it is a reality for millions of people. And people who come from cold climates have corresponding genetics and culture. Cultures and peoples are adapted to different climates and diets.

Yes, I understand that. But that’s not the case for the entire population.

Lots of people don’t need meat to stay alive and still choose to eat it. This strikes me as incoherent for those who defend the values that are present in spiritual communities like this one.

That’s why I’m asking, because I’m interested in how people make this decision compatible with their values. 

 

[Paul92]

@Farnaby If you're everything, then you're just eating yourself. Makes no difference.

[now is forever]

i wonder how the dalai lamas survived... tibet is very cold in winter isn‘t it. 

must give some slack, it’s very difficult for people far up in the north to eat simultaneously mostly vegetarian and regional and cultural authentic food.

regarding veganism, i could understand how that is in practice almost impossible to maintain.

culturally, i realize very often how difficult it is when i leave my vegan friendly city. here i don’t need to care and can move freely, because there is always something available or at least they understand what vegan means. but when i travel people often don’t even understand that fish is not vegetarian and they don’t know what vegan means exactly. eating without dairy products is almost impossible in many places. so either i need to be prepared or make small exceptions. living in india could help, but even there they cook with cream and cheese.

Edited April 21, 2019 by now is forever

[Farnaby]

22 minutes ago, Shiva said:

The way survival works is that you have to take another life (plant or animal) and consume it.

The only question is are you doing it recklessly or consciously?

I think that if one is truly conscious he will seek not to kill unnecessarily, only to the extent necessary for his survival. 

If that is so, plants may be the preferred food, which could explain why many gurus and yogis are vegetarians.

Sadhguru also mentioned that he wouldn't eat mammals because they are too complex, human-like creatures and therefore our ability to integrate their lives into ours are very poor, which leads to all kinds of negative consequences. 

However, it definitely also depends on circumstances. Not everyone has access to supermarkets where you get an abundance of whatever food you desire. If you are poor and live in a slum in some third world country, you are probably happy for any food you can get regardless of whether it's vegetarian or not. 

Of course, I would never question the decision if you’re poor. It all depends on the situation and life circumstances. 

However, there’s lots of people who defend the value of not harming others unless necessary,  who have the choice and still contribute to mass exploitation of animals. This is the kind of scenario that strikes me as incoherent. 

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Paul92 said:

@Leo Gura But Leo, surely it doesn't matter if people die anyway? They don't exist!

By that logic it also does not matter that animals die.

[Leo Gura]

25 minutes ago, now is forever said:

i wonder how the dalai lamas survived... tibet is very cold in winter isn‘t it.

From what I recall he is not a vegan precisely for those reasons.

I could be wrong. My memory is hazy here.

[zambize]

25 minutes ago, Paul92 said:

@Farnaby If you're everything, then you're just eating yourself. Makes no difference.

Legalize eating babies 

[now is forever]

Just now, Leo Gura said:

From what I recall he is not a vegan precisely for those reasons.

I could be wrong. My memory is hazy here.

looked it up and he eats meat on the roads if he recives it. but vegetarian at home. tibetan quisine seems to contain milk - japanese vegetarian doesn’t.

[Nahm]

@Farnaby I think if you try different diets you’ll know what you need to know from direct experience in terms of clarity and energy.  

[Farnaby]

25 minutes ago, now is forever said:

i wonder how the dalai lamas survived... tibet is very cold in winter isn‘t it. 

must give some slack, it’s very difficult for people far up in the north to eat simultaneously mostly vegetarian and regional and cultural authentic food.

culturally, i realize very often how difficult it is when i leave my vegan friendly city. here i don’t need to care and can move freely, because there is always something available or at least they understand what vegan means. but when i travel people often don’t even understand that fish is not vegetarian and they don’t know what vegan means exactly. eating without dairy products is almost impossible in many places. so either i need to be prepared or make small exceptions. living in india could help.

 

26 minutes ago, now is forever said:

i wonder how the dalai lamas survived... tibet is very cold in winter isn‘t it. 

must give some slack, it’s very difficult for people far up in the north to eat simultaneously mostly vegetarian and regional and cultural authentic food.

culturally, i realize very often how difficult it is when i leave my vegan friendly city. here i don’t need to care and can move freely, because there is always something available or at least they understand what vegan means. but when i travel people often don’t even understand that fish is not vegetarian and they don’t know what vegan means exactly. eating without dairy products is almost impossible in many places. so either i need to be prepared or make small exceptions. living in india could help.

I agree with you on the need to be flexible when traveling. Someone with a more radical opinion could argue that it’s often possible to find something vegan if you try hard enough, but I think there’s no problem un being flexible sometimes. 

I’m actually not vegan and am In no position to judge anyone since the dairy industry is probably worse than the meat industry. But I see the incoherence there is between my values and my actions. What I’m trying to understand is the people who don’t see the incoherence in defending spiritual values and eating whatever they want. 

[Farnaby]

4 minutes ago, Nahm said:

@Farnaby I think if you try different diets you’ll know what you need to know from direct experience in terms of clarity and energy.  

Are you implying you need meat for clarity and energy or did I get it wrong?

I’ve been a vegetarian for some years and haven’t noticed any difference. 

[now is forever]

13 minutes ago, Farnaby said:

 

I agree with you on the need to be flexible when traveling. Someone with a more radical opinion could argue that it’s often possible to find something vegan if you try hard enough, but I think there’s no problem un being flexible sometimes. 

I’m actually not vegan and am In no position to judge anyone since the dairy industry is probably worse than the meat industry. But I see the incoherence there is between my values and my actions. What I’m trying to understand is the people who don’t see the incoherence in defending spiritual values and eating whatever they want. 

well it is problematic to be flexible for me, as it really hurts my body. so it’s not a spiritual reason even though it became a spiritual reason.  i still make exceptions, sometimes.

the cultural aspect is probably what is interesting to consider in regards of templequisine and buddhist diet. japanese monks for example eat meat.

Edited April 21, 2019 by now is forever

[Farnaby]

5 minutes ago, now is forever said:

well it is problematic to be flexible for me, as it really hurts my body. so it’s not a spiritual reason even though it became a spiritual reason.  i still make exceptions, sometimes.

the cultural aspect is probably what is interesting to consider in regards of templequisine and buddhist diet.

Oh OK, I think I misunderstood you. You mean eating meat/fish hurts your body when you have to make exceptions? That's kind of shitty 

[now is forever]

11 minutes ago, Farnaby said:

Oh OK, I think I misunderstood you. You mean eating meat/fish hurts your body when you have to make exceptions? That's kind of shitty 

no milk produkts, too. i can only eat eggs and butter. it’s animal proteins. but usually i say i‘m vegan - people get easily confused otherwise.

i learn a lot - eat a lot of new food.  so it’s not so bad, and i feel spiritually clean. it’s as if my body made a decision for my soul.

Edited April 21, 2019 by now is forever

[kieranperez]

51 minutes ago, zambize said:

Legalize eating babies 

I’m going to start a restaurant that sells BBQ Devils. Freshly caught by @Leo Gura 

My specials are the ones in churches, universities, and country clubs. 

Homemade BBQ sauce that goes great on the side. 

[purerogue]

45 minutes ago, Farnaby said:

Are you implying you need meat for clarity and energy or did I get it wrong?

I’ve been a vegetarian for some years and haven’t noticed any difference. 

Good for you, but lot of people get health problems from vegan diet only, just because it works for you does not make it universal law. 

[Nahm]

@Farnaby No. I’m saying everyone is a one off. Try different diets, then you’ll know. I also found meatlessness, and dairylessness more ideal.