"My Descent into the Alt-Right Pipeline" Good video on internet radicalisation.

[now is forever]

2 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

@now is forever Don't teach what in school? My friend has the Stefan Molyneux part down pat. Now she just needs to learn what Leo teaches and she'll be whole. She's well on her way. 

Money given out of any motivation other than love is a curse. Guilt is not love. That's the problem. That's the cycle we keep perpetuating, paying money as a sort of penance for our guilt. 

well that they obviously don’t teach you what racism and social darwinism sounds like, maybe because out of guilt. it’s definitely better to feel guilty than not at all. guilt has at least the mechanism to learn. if there is no shame people don’t stop mistreating others. not knowing is only as long an excuse as there is no knowledge about it.

[mandyjw]

2 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

I live in an impoverished community with 50% unemployment, high crime and few resources. I think love and money would be great for my town. Yet if our town received 100 million dollars anonymously with no love attached, I think we could put it to good use to build a healthier community.

@Serotoninluv I live in a very similar community and my opinion is that if we were given that kind of money that there would not be a single person wise enough to decide how to use it, nor a community wise enough to select and entrust anyone with that responsibility and it would tear the community apart. We don't have a lot in the way of resources but we do have a close community. There's a grant out right now to build a vocational school but no one can agree on the location and no one is willing to give in so the grant may be lost. There's a good reason why most lottery winners are completely miserable and friendless within a year. 

[mandyjw]

6 minutes ago, now is forever said:

well that they obviously don’t teach you what racism and social darwinism sounds like, maybe because out of guilt. it’s definitely better to feel guilty than not at all. guilt has at least the mechanism to learn. if there is no shame people don’t stop mistreating others. not knowing is only as long an excuse as there is no knowledge about it.

I've been racist before, I was raised to be that way. I knew better than to say anything racist but when it occasionally came out anyway, but there was no amount of shame that changed my feelings, it strengthened them if anything. What did change them was experiencing the world and meeting people from different places and seeing how wonderful they were. Love conquers all. There's no place for shame. 

[Forestluv]

10 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

@Serotoninluv I live in a very similar community and my opinion is that if we were given that kind of money that there would not be a single person wise enough to decide how to use it, nor a community wise enough to select and entrust anyone with that responsibility and it would tear the community apart. We don't have a lot in the way of resources but we do have a close community. There's a grant out right now to build a vocational school but no one can agree on the location and no one is willing to give in so the grant may be lost. There's a good reason why most lottery winners are completely miserable and friendless within a year. 

Imo, incompetency on how to implement grants is a separate issue than whether the donation was given based on love or guilt. 

If competency was an issue, I would spend 10 million of the 100 million dollars to hire the most skilled community organizers in the world to help us. 

Imagine someone telling our town that we could receive a 100 million grant - enough to totally re-structure and vitalize our town, yet it’s better if we don’t get it because the donation was based in guilt and we would just screw it up anyway. Best to just stay impoverished. . .

[mandyjw]

@Serotoninluv In the case of a tiny sovereign Native American tribe that is completely self governing. How would you go about that? You would have to bring someone in from outside and it would be so much money that it would change the community and landscape forever. Can you see what an imposition that would be? 

Money is the way white men like to show their love. Or power. I think we get confused sometimes. 

Edited April 20, 2019 by mandyjw

[now is forever]

8 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

I've been racist before, I was raised to be that way. I knew better than to say anything racist but when it occasionally came out anyway, but there was no amount of shame that changed my feelings, it strengthened them if anything. What did change them was experiencing the world and meeting people from different places and seeing how wonderful they were. Love conquers all. There's no place for shame. 

yeah well maybe the word is different in english it’s more about a sense of shame and shamelessness i‘m really drawing back from like a hand from fire. it leaves me speechless sometimes. it’s not about shaming it’s more about not being able to take responsibility for something you didn’t do, well more even about taking responsibility for something you even did - because then it was not love, well then it was love and it seems to prevail it can’t take responsibility it can only love. it cannot be at fault.

Edited April 20, 2019 by now is forever

[Forestluv]

10 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

@Serotoninluv In the case of a tiny sovereign Native American tribe that is completely self governing. How would you go about that? You would have to bring someone in from outside and it would be so much money that it would change the community and landscape forever. Can you see what an imposition that would be? 

We were discussing my town and you seemed to flip the script to an entirely different dynamic. Of course that would be a different dynamic and I would approach that situation differently. 

In general, I think offering resources to abused communities is helpful. Yet implementing those resources effectively requires skill. The implementation might be challenging and there might be growing pains. There may be political and dependency issues to address. Yet I think that is a better path than depriving an abused community of resources. That would mean they continue to live the abuse and suffer in poverty

[mandyjw]

@Serotoninluv Poverty is a state of mind. Poverty brings many blessings. Some of the most loving well connected families you'll ever meet are dirt poor. Not having any Jones to keep up with cuts through a lot of bullshit and wasted energy chasing after paper bills. My poor community is wealthy beyond measure. 

 

Edited April 20, 2019 by mandyjw

[Forestluv]

12 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

@Serotoninluv Poverty is a state of mind. Poverty brings many blessings. Some of the most loving well connected families you'll ever meet are dirt poor. Not having any Jones' to keep up with cuts through a lot of bullshit and wasted energy chasing after paper bills. My poor community is wealthy beyond measure. 

On one level I agree with that. On another level I disagree. 

I’m not talking about people trying to keep up with the Jone’s. That is very far away from what was going on in the impoverished towns of Honduras I lived in. I’m unable to communicate the essence of that direct experience. In my view, there is a dynamic you are not considering. Yet I also acknowledge that my experience is limited and I am also unaware of many dynamics.

[Leo Gura]

14 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

Poverty is a state of mind.

Not so fast!

 

[Leo Gura]

32 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

@Serotoninluv In the case of a tiny sovereign Native American tribe that is completely self governing. How would you go about that? You would have to bring someone in from outside and it would be so much money that it would change the community and landscape forever. Can you see what an imposition that would be? 

Money is the way white men like to show their love. Or power. I think we get confused sometimes. 

It's not about handing out money. It's about correcting systemic inequalities. The system is rigged by wealthy and powerful egos. The ego never plays fair. The money is a compensating force against centuries of systemic rigging.

[now is forever]

12 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

On one level I agree with that. On another level I disagree. 

I’m not talking about people trying to keep up with the Jone’s. That is very far away from what was going on in the impoverished towns of Honduras I lived in. I’m unable to communicate the essence of that direct experience. In my view, there is a dynamic you are not considering.

maybe that the town was in honduras? and not the us? i mean at what rank of the richest countries is the us?

[Forestluv]

6 minutes ago, now is forever said:

maybe that the town was in honduras? and not the us? i mean at what rank of the richest countries is the us?

I don’t understand your question.

I would imagine the U.S. is probably ranked in the top 15 wealthiest - yet I don’t understand the relevance here.

[mandyjw]

@Leo Gura I agree, but I think that the reason this system works in Denmark is because the people are really happy with it, they want it, they are happy to pay the taxes to have amazing schools and libraries and social safety nets. The US however, elected Donald Trump. There is a huge part of America, especially rural America that works their asses off for little money and they look down the road and see someone on welfare and the person on welfare is doing quite comparably well as they are. This causes intense hate for welfare and taxes. These people will cause riots before they submit to a socialist system, not understanding that it would benefit them more than just about anyone else. They look at the rich with worship, they dream to be that someday. They buy lottery tickets to entertain the fantasy. 

The work that you teach, the work that we are doing is the only solution to this problem. Obama caused a lot of ego backlash. Obama caused Trump.

Politics and tax reform needs to come after the hearts of the people have been changed. Giving much attention to politics is putting the cart before the horse right now.

 

@Serotoninluv I know what you're saying and feeling, it's a really tricky situation.  I know that they key is to meet the people with love and become like them and take the time to see who they really are beyond the poverty and perceived limitations. If we egoically assume that our wealth can solve their problems and go in with money without understand the problems and the beauty of the culture and the people themselves we will just exacerbate the problems. It's really, really difficult not to do that. 

Edited April 20, 2019 by mandyjw

[now is forever]

14 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

I don’t understand your question.

I would imagine the U.S. is probably ranked in the top 15 wealthiest - yet I don’t understand the relevance here.

well we were talking about poor towns. does it matter where they are? i mean we have some poor communities in the east of germany but they still get support. it’s always relative isn’t it?

for me it was the most logic answer to the dynamic that was not considered. it was rethorical...

Edited April 20, 2019 by now is forever

[Forestluv]

25 minutes ago, now is forever said:

well we were talking about poor towns. does it matter where they are? i mean we have some poor communities in the east of germany but they still get support. 

for me it was the most logic answer to the dynamic that was not considered.

I don’t see it as Honduran suffering, American suffering or German suffering. It is human suffering. Yet there are also political and cultural dynamics at play. I’m not much interested in that. I tend to go to tge human aspect. 

[Leo Gura]

18 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

The US however, elected Donald Trump. There is a huge part of America, especially rural America that works their asses off for little money and they look down the road and see someone on welfare and the person on welfare is doing quite comparably well as they are. This causes intense hate for welfare and taxes. These people will cause riots before they submit to a socialist system, not understanding that it would benefit them more than just about anyone else. They look at the rich with worship, they dream to be that someday. They buy lottery tickets to entertain the fantasy. 

The work that you teach, the work that we are doing is the only solution to this problem. Obama caused a lot of ego backlash. Obama caused Trump.

Politics and tax reform needs to come after the hearts of the people have been changed. Giving much attention to politics is putting the cart before the horse right now.

Be careful with such stereotypes.

Don't forget that the majority of Americans voted against Trump! Technically Trump represents a minority of the country. Not only that, but most people voting for Trump were duped by his con game. The media did a really bad job informing voters of Trump's true nature prior to the election. Most people voting for him thought he was a successful business guy at stage Orange, when in fact he is closer to stage Red. America is not that regressive. Most Americans are conscious enough to see that Trump behaves like a devil. Even conservatives see this.

Politics, government, and culture are always evolving. We are in a transition period from Orange to Green. It's going to be a bit rocky but we'll make it. Just because there is ego backlash doesn't mean we give up hope and stop evolving. The ego will always bitching and moaning. We don't let that deter us.

The American political system is very corrupt and does not accurately represent the will of the people. Democracy is being undermined by money and ego. The majority of Americans are for policies like Medicare For All, Free College, ending wars, net neutrality, etc. It's just that corporate interests exert a corrupting influence on elections. In the future this will all change and money in politics will be outlawed.

The hearts of the people are not so bad. It's the corporate influence which is heartless. This is a function of stage Orange materialism running amok. We will grow out it in time. 2020 might be a pivotal election cycle -- the beginning of the end for Orange domination. We'll see.

[now is forever]

4 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

I don’t see it as Honduran suffering, American suffering or Honduran suffering. It is human suffering. Yet there are also political and cultural dynamics at play. I’m not much interested in that. I tend to go to tge human aspect. 

yes but that’s the human aspect, too. if you live in a poor country in a poor city you might be more happy than to live in a poor city in a rich country. how can the country justify to make you unhappy? or how do you justify to be unhappy in a rich country?

Edited April 20, 2019 by now is forever

[Forestluv]

16 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

 

@Serotoninluv I know what you're saying and feeling, it's a really tricky situation.  I know that they key is to meet the people with love and become like them and take the time to see who they really are beyond the poverty and perceived limitations. If we egoically assume that our wealth can solve their problems and go in with money without understand the problems and the beauty of the culture and the people themselves we will just exacerbate the problems. It's really, really difficult not to do that. 

Sure, if someone went in with money with egoic intentions, desires for control, power, influence, personal gain etc. problems will arise. 

I’m talking about genuine intentions. Yet, I’m oriented toward altruism and empathy and human experience. I’m not as oriented toward politics and public policy. I’m fairly naive in this area. If I was a manager of a large grant to help an impoverished area, the first thing I would do is hire experts in the areas I have deficiencies. I would lack technical knowledge in these areas, yet I think I could hire experts that have a genuine character.

[Forestluv]

5 minutes ago, now is forever said:

yes but that’s the human aspect, too. if you live in a poor country in a poor city you might be more happy than to live in a poor city in a rich country. how can the country justify to make you unhappy? or how do you justify to be unhappy in a rich country?

I read a study on this a couple years ago. They asked if poor people in wealthy countries have higher wellness than poor people in poor countries. I forget the main conclusion tho. 

I don’t understand what you mean about how to justify if a poor person is unhappy in a wealthy country.

I haven’t made these types of distinctions. They may have relevance in increasing the overall subjective wellness of the world. Yet on this issue, I’m much more human-centered. I see the human before nationalities, politics, public policy etc.