"My Descent into the Alt-Right Pipeline" Good video on internet radicalisation.

[Forestluv]

33 minutes ago, Identity said:

@Serotoninluv 

I find it hard to argue against these types of belief systems though that build up rational arguments and refer to evidence. 

And what evidence is that? I’m not aware of any evidence that shows a significant causal relationship between intelligence-associated genes and race. Many algorithms have been developed to examine this and I am unaware of evidence of a causal link. I would be very interested in that evidence. 

If you are referring to a correlation between melanin producing genes and IQ, that is very different. First, corollary evidence is the weakest evidence in science. There are many spurious correlations - such as margarine consumption is highly correlated with divorce. Yet there is no evidence that margarine consumption causes divorce. Similarly, even if there was a correlation with race and intelligence, that does not provide any evidence whatsoever that there is a genetic component associated with race causing IQ differences. My understanding is that scientists have analyzed genome-wide association screens and no significant associations between particular alleles of intelligence genes and race have been found. That is the key genetic evidence. Without that, it is speculation, not evidence. It is easy to argue against that belief system since that belief system is based on speculation, not on relevant genetic data.

[Leo Gura]

What must be deeply understood is that reason serves ego. Reason is NOT a function of truth or facts. Reason is designed to justify whatever serves the ego.

In the case of the alt-right and these genetic IQ debates, a stage Blue/Orange ego is working backwards from its conclusion that European civilization must be superior. (Notice how convenient is it that these egos happen to be European! What a shocker ) So they turn to "science" and "genetics" to solidify that fantasy in their own minds.

That's what all this is really about. It has nothing to do with truth, facts, actual intelligence, or reality.

What all of the alt-right boils down to is identity politics. They are trying to preserve their white male European identity in the face of a culture, society, era which is forcing us to adopt more global and inclusive identities. Their egos are scared of adopting a wider, more inclusive sense of self. That's all. The rest is just their justification games. "Science" and "reason" is used in these games because it lends an air of authority and truthfulness. After all, "How can one be wrong with science on one's side? Science is just objective facts, man! Facts don't care about your feelings. The data doesn't lie." LOL

In reality there is no such thing as "data". There's ego cherry-picking & interpreting data to boost its survival.

See, the devil always cloaks himself in a veneer of "truth".

[Identity]

@Serotoninluv I dont have any of the evidence. What I mean is people like Stefan Malineux refering to evidence in general.

so in this video for example, he is like: There is a correlation in iq tests.. bla bla.

im like yup, yep sounds about right.

then hes like, have had experts pro and con on my podcast.

im like, oh, really? Thats open-minded. 

Then he talks about how he incourages viewers to send him counter-arguments.

im like, oh, thats pretty self-reflective!

Then, all of a sudden, I walk away thinking black people are worth less than white people. (Overexageration ofcourse).

[Leo Gura]

@Identity That's the art of devilry

Every ideological bubble feels self-consistent and "reasonable". As long as you stay inside the bubble and don't go venturing outside.

To create your own reality-bubble all you need to do is exclude, deny, and judge alternative perspectives.

If you notice, Trump is a master at this. He's totally living in his own realty-bubble and you can see how he manipulates himself every day in order to exclude anything that would contradict his bubble. This is extremely dangerous when one has a lot of power.

This is why we make a deep study of epistemology. So that we become self-aware of how our own mind constructs reality-bubbles.

[Scholar]

I think part of the issue is repression of stage blue and orange values. If people never learn to integrate blue and orange, they will be dysfunctional and they will naturally tend to seek out these ideas, they will be attracted by whatever they lack. Because green is repressing blue and orange to a significant degree, the only supply of blue and orange values (which we should not forget, are essential for a healthy and fully developed human being) will be provided by the dysfunctional blue and orange, and rarely by stage yellow.

People nowadays are not taught the valuable memes of the lower stages, like for example discipline, purpose and responsibility, by the higher stages who themselves should embody all of these aspects. Unless this is fixed, we will not be capable of transitioning into a healthy green society, there will be too much resistance and too much repression.

Edited April 20, 2019 by Scholar

[Identity]

@Leo Gura well yeah, I guess im with you on that. But then again thats mostly just because I trust your views. And thats mostly because your reasoning makes sense to me.

When I get out there and brave these kind of debates myself, I find it hard to evaluate whats true. Especially if reasoning flies out the window as well, what do I have left.

I guess what Im starting to realize more and more is that I actually dont know shit ?

[Forestluv]

@Identity Some people are good at making flimsy arguments sound sturdy. 

Here, let’s say that there is a correlation between race and IQ. That does not mean genetics has anything to do with it. That is an assumption. The correlation could be spurious or there could be an underlying cause. Perhaps genetics, environment or a combination of both. To show genetic causation - one would need to show an association of actual genes. For example, if a cluster of specific gene alleles are associated with low IQ AND blacks have a higher frequency of processing that gene cluster, THEN one could make a genetic-based argument of genetically/relevant racial differences. Yet no one has showed that.

It’s easy to spot when others are making “rational” arguments that are actually irrational.  Are they providing evidence of specific gene differences or not? If not it is just speculation. For example, imagine there is a correlation that Canadians consume less gelato than Italians. I then said it was due to genetic differences. Wouldn’t that seem irrational to you? It could also be because Italy is a much warmer climate and gelato is a big part of Italian culture. To show a genetic component, we would need to show actual genetic differences between Canadians and Italians that alter their gelato consuming behavior. 

[now is forever]

2 hours ago, mandyjw said:

@Leo Gura I love you both. I don't trust either one of you though. 

are you sure you are still the owner of your mind - it sounds a little bit like someone from outa space got a hold on it. can you check if it is still there please.

it‘s called social darwinism by the way and was invented by the one who’s name we don’t want to say. A**** H*****.

spiderman told me his followers  built a colony on mars, maybe you just check if it is them.

Edited April 20, 2019 by now is forever

[Leo Gura]

27 minutes ago, Scholar said:

People nowadays are not taught the valuable memes of the lower stages, like for example discipline, purpose and responsibility

There is some truth to this.

But it's important to teach stage Blue & Orange memes in a healthy, non-pathological, non-exclusionary way.

For example, Jordan Peterson teaches these memes but he laces them with his toxic, judgmental, ethnocentric, dualistic shadow -- which then rubs off on his students.

25 minutes ago, Identity said:

@Leo Gura well yeah, I guess im with you on that. But then again thats mostly just because I trust your views. And thats mostly because your reasoning makes sense to me.

You must actually sit down and contemplate through these issues to understand how your mind works. Believing me is next to useless. Sit down with a journal and contemplate questions like:

• What is reason?
• What is evidence?
• What is data?
• What is interpretation?
• What is science?
• What is truth?
• What is knowledge?
• How do we know anything?
• How do I know I can trust my own mind?
• What if my mind is lying to me?
• How is my perspective biased?
• Where did my beliefs come from?
• Why do I believe the things I believe?
• If I don't know anything, how should I act?
• etc.

See my video: How To Contemplate Using A Journal

All the answers are inside you. But you have to sit down and dig them out.

[Leo Gura]

58 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Here, let’s say that there is a correlation between race and IQ. That does not mean genetics has anything to do with it. That is an assumption. The correlation could be spurious or there could be an underlying cause. Perhaps genetics, environment or a combination of both.

If blacks in America received $30 trillion dollars in reparations for slavery (which is just one estimate of the damage done during slavery), the IQ gap would disappear. That's my empirical claim. It could be tested. But of course the whole point is that no one wants to test it. The whole point of the IQ race debate is to deny that blacks are economically abused. The ego wants to blame it on their "inferior genetics", rap music, drugs, sex, black culture, laziness, etc.

The economic unfairness is deliberately overlooked. Because it's too true to admit! It's too much responsibility. What white ego wants to admit that blacks in America incurred $30 trillion dollars worth of abuse? It's too outrageous to admit.

The amazing thing is that blacks have as high an IQ as they do, given the amount of abuse they incurred. A 10 point IQ difference is very small given the historical context and their economic situation.

Hell, one easy way to remove the black IQ gap is to simply change the way we fund public schools. Make all our public schools evenly funded rather than basing the funding off local real estate taxes. This would equalize funding for school in regions with low real estate values. This one change alone could equalize the IQ gap. But no one wants to implement it because it means whites will lose their best schools.

See, blaming genetics is very convenient because then it means we don't have to make any tough policy changes. The ego abuses a victim out of selfishness, then it blame the victim's genetics. This way the ego can feel righteous and superior while it keeps behaving like the selfish devil that it is. The whole purpose of the ego is to prevent honest self-reflection. The devil cannot look himself in the mirror, so he covers up all the mirrors.

[now is forever]

i wonder where the emotional ranking of the us would be if there wouldn’t be the emotional quotient of jazz, blues, funk and hip hop - if intelligence is measurable by invention i would say you can see how the bunny walks.

[Forestluv]

13 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

If blacks in this country received $30 trillion dollars in reparations for slavery, the IQ gap would disappear. That's my empirical claim. It could be tested.

I would also predict that outcome. 

Your description of social abuse rings true to me as well ?? 

[mandyjw]

@now is forever  I'm not sure, but I think you're saying that you think I'm a racist? 

Racism exists because people are so terrified that when they open their mouth in a discussion like that that something racist will come out. They are so afraid of being shamed that racism isn't even discussed. Not really. It's like expecting teenagers who have never been given any information about sex whatsoever not to have sex. This is why we have so much racism. Any topic that can't be discussed freely turns into a massive societal problem. 

Repression. Shame. Ego. 

This is one of the few places that we should be evolved enough to be able to discuss stuff like this.

 

Edited April 20, 2019 by mandyjw

[mandyjw]

15 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

If blacks in America received $30 trillion dollars in reparations for slavery (which is just one estimate of the damage done during slavery), the IQ gap would disappear. That's my empirical claim. It could be tested. But of course the whole point is that no one wants to test it. The whole point of the IQ race debate is to deny that blacks are economically abused. The ego wants to blame it on their "inferior genetics", rap music, drugs, sex, black culture, laziness, etc.

How much would it take to repay the Native Americans for their land that will never again be the same? For the buffalo, the caribou? The sacred spots that were mined away by white men? For imposing upon them the idea that land could be "owned" and wasn't everyone's to share? 

It takes a lot of intelligence to be a real estate mogul like Donald Trump.

It takes a lot of love and spiritual connection to be one with your tribe, your land, your ancestors. 

Money is not the answer to this problem. Love is. 

[now is forever]

13 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

@now is forever  I'm not sure, but I think you're saying that you think I'm a racist? 

Racism exists because people are so terrified that when they open their mouth in a discussion like that that something racist will come out. They are so afraid of being shamed that racism isn't even discussed. Not really. It's like expecting teenagers who have never been given any information about sex whatsoever not to have sex. This is why we have so much racism. Any topic that can't be discussed freely turns into a massive societal problem. 

Repression. Shame. Ego. 

This is one of the few places that we should be evolved enough to be able to discuss stuff like this.

 

ok it was not about shaming you, or telling you weather i think you are racist or not - it was about trying to tell you what you don’t understand in a language you might understand. because i was not so sure what you might understand or not. although i’m not so sure if your friend might not be in a serious situation of alien abduction. maybe you need to rescue her!

seriously why don’t they teach this in school? it’s unbelievable for me.

Edited April 20, 2019 by now is forever

[Scholar]

30 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

There is some truth to this.

But it's important to teach stage Blue & Orange memes in a healthy, non-pathological, non-exclusionary way.

For example, Jordan Peterson teaches these memes but he laces them with his toxic, judgmental, ethnocentric, dualistic shadow -- which then rubs off on his students.

I agree, but I think that makes it even more important for functional and healthy people to teach these virtues. People have to get them somewhere, and if the only people teaching them are Jordan Petersons, then that will be where they will get their fix.

Religion is being dismantled and we have not really bothered to replace these structures with more healthy ones. People used to listen to a preacher, now the listen to Alex Jones. I feel like Spiral Wizardry is more needed now than it ever has been. It seems like sometimes we evolve so far ahead that we don't realize how much most people are lagging behind. We forget the basic challenges they are facing, which we have long overcome.

It's like burning the bridge with which we have crossed the river and then wonder about how all the other people are not on the same side of the river.

Edited April 20, 2019 by Scholar

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, Scholar said:

I feel like Spiral Wizardry is more needed now than it ever has been. It seems like sometimes we evolve so far ahead that we don't realize how much most people are lagging behind. We forget the basic challenges they are facing, which we have long overcome.

Yes, this is a huge issue.

What the world needs more than enlightened gurus teaching nonduality is a bridge from where the world is now to a place where folks can just be openminded enough to buy a book about nonduality.

Which is why I teach a lot of stuff besides strict nonduality.

[Forestluv]

9 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

Money is not the answer to this problem. Love is. 

Based on my experience living in both poverty-stricken and affluent communities, I would say both money and love would be helpful. They are not mutually exclusive.

[mandyjw]

@now is forever Don't teach what in school? My friend has the Stefan Molyneux part down pat. Now she just needs to learn what Leo teaches and she'll be whole. She's well on her way. 

2 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

I’ve lived in poverty-stricken communities and I would say both money and love would be helpful. 

Money given out of any motivation other than love is a curse. Guilt is not love. That's the problem. That's the cycle we keep perpetuating, paying money as a sort of penance for our guilt. 

[Forestluv]

15 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

Money given out of any motivation other than love is a curse. Guilt is not love. That's the problem. That's the cycle we keep perpetuating, paying money as a sort of penance for our guilt. 

I live in an impoverished community with 50% unemployment, high crime and few resources. I think love and money would be great for my town. Yet if our town received 100 million dollars anonymously with no love attached, I think we could put it to good use to build a healthier community. Would it solve our of our problems? No. Yet I think we could create a much healthier and loving community with those resources.

If we had the opportunity to receive a 100 million dollar donation and somebody told us it won’t help because the donation is based on guilt, not love - I would disagree. And I think many of the impoverished people in my town that are living in shacks, malnourished and struggling to feed their kids would also disagree.