Amazing BatGap Interview - Harri Aalto (Enlightened Since 4)

[Forestluv]

23 minutes ago, kieranperez said:

You can learn forever. You can create more distinctions. Why? That’s the nature of consciousness. 

Yes. That is an understanding of distinctions and consciousness in the context of learning.

I would also add the other “direction”. We can also unlearn by deconstructing distinctions. That is also the nature of consciousness. . . Unlearning is powerful at times. 

[kieranperez]

Just now, Serotoninluv said:

Yes. That is an understanding of distinctions and consciousness in the context of learning.

I would also add the other “direction”. We can also unlearn by deconstructing distinctions. That is also the nature of consciousness. . . Unlearning is a powerful at times. 

Huge and much harder in my experience. Unlearning is the key to being able to learn the best in my experience... after a certain point. 

As the adage goes... follow the rules before you break them. You gotta get good at following them before you can transcend them. 

[Forestluv]

24 minutes ago, kieranperez said:

Unlearning is the key to being able to learn the best in my experience... after a certain point. 

I see learning and unlearning as one. Construction - Deconstruction - Construction - Deconstruction of distinctions. Back and forth we go. Yin and Yang.

A mind fluid with this is also quite nimble. This is a mind that cannot easily be taken hostage by an ego and thought stories. When a mind can go both forward and reverse, it is far less likely to get stuck in subtle attachment. 

Most people spend years trying to deconstruct a few thought stories. They don’t want to look at them and experience discomfort. 

Imagine being able to deconstruct a thought story in minutes, even seconds. It opens space for new construction, new learning. Yet that new learning can easily be deconstructed as well. Back to nothing if the mind so desires. That is a liberated mind - beholden to no idea, knowledge or concept.

[kieranperez]

4 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

I see learning and unlearning as one. Construction - Deconstruction - Construction - Deconstruction of distinctions. Back and forth we go. Yin and Yang.

The minds most  fluid with this are also the most nimble. It is a mind that cannot easily be taken hostage by an ego. When a mind can go both forward and reverse, it is far less likely to get stuck in subtle attachment. 

I’ve noticed a big overlooked obstacle in my experience to this process is a very subtle fear that I didn’t really know was there. As soon as I let go and I surrender I feel so much more free. 

Ive said this in the past but not-Knowing is one of those most liberation experiences I think a person can feel. 

[cetus]

@kieranperez From The book of Not Knowing -Peter Ralston

Our “knowing” is like a closed circuit that limits possibilities in our thinking, our relating, and in our way of being in the world. To step outside of it is very freeing, but it takes effort, and questioning ourselves in this way can be uncomfortably openended. We have to be willing to let go of familiar “landmarks” like our self-identity and cherished beliefs. Whether these ideas are based on truth or untruth is insignificant here

[kieranperez]

14 minutes ago, cetus56 said:

@kieranperez From The book of Not Knowing -Peter Ralston

Our “knowing” is like a closed circuit that limits possibilities in our thinking, our relating, and in our way of being in the world. To step outside of it is very freeing, but it takes effort, and questioning ourselves in this way can be uncomfortably openended. We have to be willing to let go of familiar “landmarks” like our self-identity and cherished beliefs. Whether these ideas are based on truth or untruth is insignificant here

Chapter 1  

I love that book and Ralston's work. 

[Forestluv]

Direct experience of not knowing is deep, yet be aware if the mind then tries to reject knowing and embrace not knowing. This can create a new duality and attachment.

[cetus]

@kieranperez I like the way Peter says "uncomfortably openended" But that's where the freedom lies in not knowing.

[Leo Gura]

Radical openmindedness.

You gotta be so openminded it kills you

[cetus]

14 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Radical openmindedness.

You gotta be so openminded it kills you

Oh no! There goes mom!

[kieranperez]

35 minutes ago, cetus56 said:

@kieranperez I like the way Peter says "uncomfortably openended" But that's where the freedom lies in not knowing.

Good eye. I’ve said this before. Ralston is so clear and precise that people often overlook what he’s saying. 

Those books need to really be read so slowly in order to even somewhat grasp what he’s even trying to convey. 

As @Leo Gura says that I find true, “Ralston is a sneaky one”. 

[AlwaysBeNice]

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

You are being far too flippant and one-dimensional. What you're exhibiting here is an absolutist pathology of awakening. A form of Zen devilry.

Life is multiple-dimensional, infinite, and complex. There's way more to this work than you hold.

What is silly is that you think you've reached some kind of end.

Nothing is never done. Life is reinventing itself all the time, without end. Join the party.

That post implied me having 'reached' something?

[How to be wise]

@Leo Gura I generally agree with what you’re saying, but there are two problems.

1) If those sages were genetically gifted why aren’t their siblings and parents also spirituality gifted, after all they have the closest resembling genes. Sadhguru was the youngest of thirteen children, yet I hear none of his other siblings are gurus. His parents? Ramana had a brother, what about him? Was he also gifted spiritually?

2) Overall, talking about the link between the neural system and awakening leaves a huge problem. What about spontaneous awakening that happened in the past many times. Those took only a few moments, and yet left a permanent awakening experience and a radical new state of consciousness. How did the entire neural system rewire itself in only a matter of a few moments? Because the person often goes from an unconscious depressed, hugely egoic person to an enlightened master in a couple of minutes. 

 

[Leo Gura]

16 minutes ago, How to be wise said:

@Leo Gura I generally agree with what you’re saying, but there are two problems.

1) If those sages were genetically gifted why aren’t their siblings and parents also spirituality gifted, after all they have the closest resembling genes. Sadhguru was the youngest of thirteen children, yet I hear none of his other siblings are gurus. His parents? Ramana had a brother, what about him? Was he also gifted spiritually?

Firstly, even siblings are genetically diverse.

Secondly, the genetic factor is still only one factor. Hard training is also required. Sadhguru did yoga from a very early age. Genetics alone is not enough in most cases. All that genetics do is make it easier, not easy.

Thirdly, witchcraft seems to have some heritable aspects. Children of witches are more likely to have paranormal abilities from my understanding.

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2) Overall, talking about the link between the neural system and awakening leaves a huge problem. What about spontaneous awakening that happened in the past many times. Those took only a few moments, and yet left a permanent awakening experience and a radical new state of consciousness. How did the entire neural system rewire itself in only a matter of a few moments? Because the person often goes from an unconscious depressed, hugely egoic person to an enlightened master in a couple of minutes. 

I don't see any contradiction here. The cases you're describing are extremely rare and they could be explained by the mind web going through a catastrophic collapse and then reconfiguring itself.

In a sense, all deep awakening is sudden. But also gradual.

Virtually no one becomes a enlightened master in a couple of minutes. This is pure fantasy. Eckhart Tolle, after his egoic collapse, spent 2 years sitting on a park bench. That was 2 solid years of his brain integrating his breakthrough.

The opposite of what you say is true: all enlightened masters that I know spent 10,000+ hours to become a master. And that was on top of their spiritual giftedness!

On top of all this there could additional factors like karma, soul, past-lives, etc. It's way more complex than people think.

[How to be wise]

@Leo Gura It took Byron Katie one evening to turn from a suicidle depressed woman to an enlightened person who was basking in nothingness and love. That experience stayed with her 33 years as of now. Sure she did three years of integration work, but her initial experience was permanent. Could the brain rewire itself that quickly?

Plus, from (1), your points are true, but it’s just so rare to find relatives enlightened at the same time. 90% of those gifted teachers do not have enlightened relatives. Doesn’t that say something about the correlation between enlightened teachers having gifted genes.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, How to be wise said:

@Leo Gura It took Byron Katie one evening to turn from a suicidle depressed woman to an enlightened person who was basking in nothingness and love. That experience stayed with her 33 years as of now. Sure she did three years of integration work, but her initial experience was permanent. Could the brain rewire itself that quickly?

Lol, she was on the brink of suicide and suffered for YEARS! You are dismissing all that "work".

Yes, if you drive yourself nuts to the brink of suicide and then finally the ego happens to collapse by some fluke instead of you actually killing yourself, the brain can then rewire itself. But it wasn't really quick. It was a process years in the making. It's like an explosion that was building up for years, and then one day it all burst.

And even so, these kinds of cases are extremely rare. They might as well not exist. This is not a reliable strategy for awakening.

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Plus, from (1), your points are true, but it’s just so rare to find relatives enlightened at the same time. 90% of those gifted teachers do not have enlightened relatives. Doesn’t that say something about the correlation between enlightened teachers having gifted genes.

You make an interesting point. But I still think there is a physiological component to spiritual giftedness. It's just damn rare.

How do you explain that many of the most awakened people experienced their awakenings very early in life, often when they are 12 years old, 18 years old, etc. How do you explain people who do one meditation retreat or self-inquire for a few weeks and become enlightened? That is extremely rare and atypical. An average person cannot do that. Otherwise a large percentage of the population would be enlightened, but they just aren't and can't.

More broadly-speaking, how do you explain that less than 0.00001% of humans wake up? This cannot be explained simply by lack of effort. Even within people who do hardcore spiritual practice, STILL, less than 1% deeply awaken. Again, this is not merely due to lack of effort.

There is a deep connection between one's effort in this work and one's spiritual intuition. Why are some people much more spiritually attuned than others? Why are some people totally spiritually clueless? Lack of effort is not enough to explain it because one's willingness to exert effort is directly proportional to one's initial spiritual attunement.

So my claim is that the people who wake up are the ones who start out in life already highly spiritually attuned. Poor upbringing and environment can obscure this attunement, requiring some decades of life experience for the person to realize that they even have this spiritual attunement.

The problem with spiritual attunement is that most people who have it take it completely for granted. They don't know what life is like without it because they've always had it, and they assume everyone else has it too. But most people don't. It's sort of like having a very high IQ or being very tall. You don't even realize that most people are not that way.

For example, I am 6'2". It took me 30 years to realize that not everyone is that tall. To me, being tall feels totally normal. I don't even know what it means to be short. It took me 30 years to realize that the world is designed for short people: hotel showers, all chairs and sofas and benches, airplane seats, sinks, toilets, urinals, jackets, pants, cars, etc. I can't sit comfortably on most chairs because they are designed for short people and I only realized that a few years ago! I didn't realize it because I assumed that all people are the same.

[How to be wise]

@Leo Gura I also agree that brain type is an important factor to this work. But we can’t move forward without first resolving this mystery: why so few of their relatives are also not awake. You mentioned upbringing, but siblings get very similar upbringing. Usually they go to the same school, same schedule, etc. Lack of knowledge about awakening is also not an answer, because the chances are high that after one of them gets enlightened, the others will find out what happened to him. Whether they agree with spirituality or not is a different matter, but they will find out about it nonetheless. So how do you explain the severe rarity of family members: siblings, children, parents following along?

[Angelite]

In other words, it is purification of the heart

 

And clearing your psyche from limiting belief. Eg,it's only possible for certain people/genes.

Needless of anything except God. Being crazily open minded.

 

[Nahm]

@How to be wise Katie spoke of her brain being re-wired? I’ve missed that. If you have a video or article please share. Thanks. Also, the answer to your conundrum could be that it’s not an achievement, but the opposite, a dropping of what one has been holding. In the sense that anyone (99%) could be enlightened, and if they are not, it’s because they don’t want to be.  Duality is an easy explanation for how words and thoughts can always see the factor from either side. 

@Angelite “With God, all things are possible”  You might enjoy a Reiki class. First step in healing is acknowledging the ego does nothing. Sounds like you got step one pretty down pat. 

[kieranperez]

55 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Lol, she was on the brink of suicide and suffered for YEARS! You are dismissing all that "work".

Yes, if you drive yourself nuts to the brink of suicide and then finally the ego happens to collapse by some fluke instead of you actually killing yourself, the brain can then rewire itself. But it wasn't really quick. It was a process years in the making. It's like an explosion that was building up for years, and then one day it all burst.

And even so, these kinds of cases are extremely rare. They might as well not exist. This is not a reliable strategy for awakening.

Moral of the story... standing on the edge of the Golden Gate Bridge about to jump isn’t the best path enlightenment. 

2 hours ago, How to be wise said:

Plus, from (1), your points are true, but it’s just so rare to find relatives enlightened at the same time. 90% of those gifted teachers do not have enlightened relatives. Doesn’t that say something about the correlation between enlightened teachers having gifted genes.

These odd cases are prevalent among all domains of mastery. For example, Michael Jordan is 6’6” and the next tallest person down from him is his dad whose 5’7”. There will always be those odd cases.

You also have to consider past lives and past karma and man that can make it even hairier. Sadhguru in his biography and many YouTube video for example refers to his extreme clarity and recollection of past lives of hardcore spiritual work where he spent multiple lifetimes of work. Of course, none of his past life times were within his immediate family tree as far as blood relatives go in the conventional sense. So it makes sense as to how Sadhguru at 25 with no work at all in this current life time sit on a rock after work and then be fully enlightened... and there was still time spent integrating his past lives and so forth but basically was done and has been living in this constant God consciousness ever since and is able to run organizations and stuff.

To model one’s path off these freaks of nature and downright anomalies just isn’t smart. 

All because you’re very accomplished doesn’t make you a great teacher. You can be a great athlete and have accomplished a lot but that doesn’t mean you understand and can relate to everyone else. If you want to know how to ride a horse, don’t talk to the horse. Which is not to say don’t learn from these people but these guys still can lack an accurate frame of reference.

Edited April 20, 2019 by kieranperez