Amazing BatGap Interview - Harri Aalto (Enlightened Since 4)

[kieranperez]

First off... Talking about winning the lottery LOL. Lucky fuck ?

This is an amazing intro interview with a man whose been in seemingly nondual consciousness since the age of 4 years old (yes your reading skills are working just fine).

This is extremely interesting because he talks about his realization being when he was at meditation retreat pursuing enlightenment in his early 20s (granted he was already in nondual consciousness) and that it wasn’t until that nondual consciousness subsided for 10-15 minutes in his sit and came back that he realized that he “had” what he was seeking his whole life but he didn’t have a context for it since enlightenment was so mystified and unclear. This is profound if we apply what @Leo Gura talks about with epistimology because he had no frame of reference or contrast for his own paradigm and experience. 

He also talks about what he seems to be subtly referring to siddhis and paranormal physical abilities since pure consciousness basically permeated his entire body. 

To wrap this all up though as far as what makes this interesting is that this guy is very clear proof that this stuff DOES come easily to people. Giftedness in this domain does exist. There are these freaks of nature who can do this stuff. It also shows in his demeanor and his speech that yeah, these guy with these powers and superhuman levels of consciousness don’t wish to talk about this stuff and really would rather stay quiet. 

Enjoy!

[Leo Gura]

57 minutes ago, kieranperez said:

very clear proof that this stuff DOES come easily to people. Giftedness in this domain does exist. There are these freaks of nature who can do this stuff.

Absolutely. In fact, I'd bet that the majority of enlightened people got there mostly due to their giftedness. It's just SO much easier that way. It's like being naturally high on psychedelics all the time.

Similar to how the best weightlifters will be naturally selected for high testosterone. Those with naturally low testosterone simply won't be able to compete against them.

Which is why many of the best gurus make the path sound easier than it actually is. It was easy for them. Yet it will be virtually impossible for ordinary folk.

This is the kind of stuff gurus rarely admit. Because you cannot know this stuff from sitting on a meditation cushion. To know this requires broad psychological research which most gurus dismiss because it is not 1st person experience.

Different brains have very different capabilities. It's not merely a matter of degree, it's also a different in kind. Some brains can access states and phenomena which other brains just cannot.

[kieranperez]

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Absolutely. In fact, I'd bet that the majority of enlightened people got there mostly due to their giftedness. It's just SO much easier that way.

What I hear this guy describing in this interview is kinda what I hear from you with all your awakenings with 5-MeO but he’s having this just naturally. He’s describing literally thousands of deeper and deeper states of consciousness without any sort of external leverage like a guru, teacher, or psychedelic. 

These cases like Sadhguru, Ramana Maharshi, even Ralston who describes his staggering amount of work (the talent aka inherent capacity still has to be there in order to be actualized)... I personally have a hard time finding relating to these people because it’s like relating to a human fantasy in most cases. It’s like being a good runner but comparing yourself to the world record holder in the marathon. I thinks it’s tricky because these people don’t seem extrodinary so it seems like “well yeah I should be able to do this then.” These people are not your average no-self level enlightened people. Which is why I’m glad you emphasize depth because that’s something I see in any domain that’s not nearly emphasized enough. Much less the domain of nonduality. 

Glad to see how humble and “ordinary” he is though. I can’t exain how refreshing that is. 

Nonetheless, I do find these cases who have these abilities absolutely fascinating because it’s shows what’s actually possible for a human being (whether it comes naturally or not) and sparks there curiosity for how dee human potential and understanding goes. 

Edited April 19, 2019 by kieranperez

[kieranperez]

39 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

This is the kind of stuff gurus rarely admit. Because you cannot know this stuff from sitting on a meditation cushion. To know this requires broad psychological research which most gurus dismiss because it is not 1st person experience.

Isn’t it ironic how “objectivist” science and subjective spiritual gurus and masters both mutually single each other out because they both dismiss each other? The amount of more clarity we can get on having a more efficient, honest, and realistic u detstanding we could get on the spiritual path if both cooperated is going to be so much better once these communities merge.

39 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Similar to how the best weightlifters will be naturally selected for high testosterone. Those with naturally low testosterone simply won't be able to compete against them.

I make this case to other athletes all the time. I have some friends who’ve been to the Olympics and have competed at that level and they too are in this denial that they got there largely because of their talent. They literally think anybody could run under 4 for the mile if they worked hard enough. I’ve had friends who as a freshman in high school ran mid 4:20s and then next thing you know are national champs. But the problem is that the mind (regardless of the domain) creates a limiting narrative of how because they did it their way and they only look at their experience, they think it should be the case for everyone and it’s just wrong. Flat out wrong. 

I think what also needs to be made clear to many people is that many of these talent cases often don’t make good teachers. They can have great insight into the nature of God and also great wisdom and knowledge about the relative world but they doesn’t make them effective teachers per say. Michael Jordan is the greatest basketball player of all time (in my honest - accurate - opinion ?). Horrible GM and owner and would make a horrific coach because he literally assumes everybody should be exactly like him and would be as good as him if they had that mindset. 

I mean, I remember Ralston said something on how you can literally create in one of his videos. Not sure what he really means by that though - feel free to expand on that if you know what he’s means though because I even emailed him on that but he said he would answer in a newsletter that was never released.

I think this is why those guys who work their asses off in this work and do get to the end after decades of work are the real inspirations to me because this shit didn’t come easy to them. 

I think that’s what resonates with your vlogs (at least for me). This doesn’t seem to come easy for you in yet people still feel your intensity and passion for this work and youre finding your place and you’re driving hard at this. I don’t mean this as some idealistic projection but just my own 2 cents on the matter.

Edited April 19, 2019 by kieranperez

[Leo Gura]

44 minutes ago, kieranperez said:

What I hear this guy describing in this interview is kinda what I hear from you with all your awakenings with 5-MeO but he’s having this just naturally. He’s describing literally thousands of deeper and deeper states of consciousness without any sort of external leverage like a guru, teacher, or psychedelic. 

Yup, this certainly happens.

People generally do not appreciate how much difference there can be between brains. Some brains are able to access spiritual dimensions 1000x more efficiently than others.

Remember that evolution naturally selects for human brains to favor survival and fitting into society rather than witchcraft. As we know, tens of thousands of witches and mystics (the most spiritually gifted humans) were demonized and executed. Witches are demonized in basically all cultures around the world.

Quote

These cases like Sadhguru, Ramana Maharshi, even Ralston who describes his staggering amount of work (the talent aka inherent capacity still has to be there in order to be actualized)... I personally have a hard time finding relating to these people because it’s like relating to a human fantasy in most cases. It’s like being a good runner but comparing yourself to the world record holder in the marathon. I thinks it’s tricky because these people don’t seem extrodinary so it seems like “well yeah I should be able to do this then.” These people are not your average no-self level enlightened people.

Absolutely! Do not even try to compare yourself to the likes of Sadhguru, Ramana, or Ralston. That is a recipe for depression. That would be like comparing your lifting ability to a forklift.

It is imperative that you walk your own unique spiritual path, not some guru's path. Your path must match your strengths and capacities.

Quote

Nonetheless, I do find these cases who have these abilities absolutely fascinating because it’s shows what’s actually possible for a human being (whether it comes naturally or not) and sparks there curiosity for how dee human potential and understanding goes. 

Yes, appreciate freakish levels of excellence and consciousness in the same way you might appreciate freakish levels of musical skill or artistic skill. Don't expect everyone to be a Mozart, a Picasso, an Einstein, or a Da Vinci. These were gifted, genius people. They did not achieve it merely through hard work, although they did often work hard.

At the same time, don't make victim-like excuses for why you cannot awaken. Don't think like this, "Oh well, I'm not as gifted as Sadhguru so I will never awaken." No! You can still awaken. It will just take more work.

This also explains why psychedelics play such an important role. They allow people to access states of consciousness which the best gurus access naturally and effortlessly. The psychedelic levels the playing field. It's like taking a pill that would match your chess-playing abilities to Gary Kasporov. Then you can experience what it's like to play chess at a world-class level. You get to see what the guru sees. This allows you to understand the guru much better because now there is a set of common reference experiences between you two. And of course this motivates you to do the work because you see the amazing potential of the work which you would otherwise never see.

[NoSelfSelf]

53 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Absolutely. In fact, I'd bet that the majority of enlightened people got there mostly due to their giftedness. It's just SO much easier that way. It's like being naturally high on psychedelics all the time.

Similar to how the best weightlifters will be naturally selected for high testosterone. Those with naturally low testosterone simply won't be able to compete against them.

Which is why many of the best gurus make the path sound easier than it actually is. It was easy for them. Yet it will be virtually impossible for ordinary folk.

This is the kind of stuff gurus rarely admit. Because you cannot know this stuff from sitting on a meditation cushion. To know this requires broad psychological research which most gurus dismiss because it is not 1st person experience.

Different brains have very different capabilities. It's not merely a matter of degree, it's also a different in kind. Some brains can access states and phenomena which other brains just cannot.

Isnt this victim mindset?

[Leo Gura]

@NoSelfSelf Not at all.

It is not victim mindset to say that a gorilla has more strength than a human. A gorilla could rip the arms out of man's sockets and a rattlesnake can see in infrared whereas you cannot. A woman can give birth, a man cannot.

This is just acknowledging that an organism's capabilities are related to its physiology and genetics. It's a very obvious fact which many tend to overlook because they love the idea that all people are equal. Well, all people may deserve equal civil rights, but they are not equal in capability. Not even close. Some people cannot add two numbers together. Some people cannot read a book. Some people cannot see the color red. Some people cannot walk. Some people are covered in hair from head to toe. Some people hallucinate flying monkeys. Some people are psychopaths. Some people are witches. Some people have telepathic abilities. Some people have an amazing sense of smell, like a dog. Some people have perfect pitch. Some people have super-human visualization abilities, like Nikola Tesla.

[kieranperez]

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, appreciate freakish levels of excellence and consciousness in the same way you might appreciate freakish levels of musical skill or artistic skill. Don't expect everyone to be a Mozart, a Picasso, an Einstein, or a Da Vinci. These were gifted, genius people. They did not achieve it merely through hard work, although they did often work hard.

Here’s my question though, do you think we all have a true given Genius like some of the names you mentioned and that part of the “imperative” is to become clear on what that is and then tying that in with life purpose? Again, just your own personal opinion as I’m curious as to where you stand on that. 

3 minutes ago, NoSelfSelf said:

Isnt this victim mindset?

NO! People are talented. That’s just the fact of the matter. Not everybody “can be like Mike”. There’s a reason Michael Jordan is Michael Jordan. There’s a reason Jesus was Jesus. What Leo and I seem to be on the same on is that you don’t have to be like them. Accept your own limitations and your strengths! That acceptance is a strength not some victim. To try to emulate Jesus or something stems from a place of lack of acceptance that yeah, you can’t walk on water lol and aren’t at that level of talent. 

All because you can’t run a sub 2 hour marathon like Eliud Kipchoge doesn’t mean you can’t run fast. You can. Just have honest expectations and stay grounded with the fact that, yeah, not everybody has the capacity to earn an Olympic gold. 

[NoSelfSelf]

@Leo Gura @kieranperez  believing that makes you stay in your current state...thats why i do personal development to go beyond whats given to me...

[kieranperez]

23 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

This also explains why psychedelics play such an important role. They allow people to access states of consciousness which the best gurus access naturally and effortlessly. The psychedelic levels the playing field. It's like taking a pill that would match your chess-playing abilities to Gary Kasporov. Then you can experience what it's like to play chess at a world-class level. You get to see what the guru sees. This allows you to understand the guru much better because now there is a set of common reference experiences between you two. And of course this motivates you to do the work because you see the amazing potential of the work which you would otherwise never see.

Have you seen any research of evidence or any direct evidence based on your own experience that psychedelics change brain chemistry? Do you think the “neurofeedback meditation” you’ve been experienenting with has any promising potential?

[Leo Gura]

@NoSelfSelf Believing that everyone has equal capabilities is just denying the obvious.

If physiology was irrelevant, then there would be no difference between humans and chimpanzees. Our DNA is 99% the same, yet that 1% difference makes a HUGE difference in capabilities. These differences are not just between species, they are within each species as well. That's how evolution works. There is diversity. There is no such thing as "a human" or "a chimpanzee". Each one is unique. With unique strengths and weaknesses.

It could not be otherwise.

[Nahm]

@kieranperez Are you claiming to know beyond your seeing & hearing? 

[NoSelfSelf]

@Leo Gura no we dont but we can work around it and find a way there is always a way...

[kieranperez]

6 minutes ago, NoSelfSelf said:

@Leo Gura @kieranperez  believing that makes you stay in your current state...thats why i do personal development to go beyond whats given to me...

Lol if you think mere belief is going to change your muscle type to run under 2 hours for a marathon then yeah... you can go ahead and assume that ?? be my guess. I dont know what else to tell you othe than that you’re lost in fantasy. 

2 minutes ago, Nahm said:

@kieranperez Are you claiming to know beyond your seeing & hearing? 

It’s acknowledging the reality that there are differences and limits. 

This work isn’t about trying to be some superhuman fantasy. 

[Nahm]

@kieranperez Such little faith. A mustard seed is all you need.

[NoSelfSelf]

@kieranperez you can change your muscle type if you didnt know...from fast twitch to slow twitch and vice versa

[Leo Gura]

9 minutes ago, NoSelfSelf said:

@Leo Gura no we dont but we can work around it and find a way there is always a way...

You cannot teach a mule arithmetic no matter how hard you try.

To deny this leads to gross errors, unworkable solutions, frustration, and even evil.

Acknowledging the uniqueness and individuality of each human is very important to build a well-functioning society. You cannot treat everyone as an abstraction. Some people have very different needs.

See my video: Why People Seem Crazy

It's one of my most important videos if you want to understand humanity.

[Consilience]

2 minutes ago, NoSelfSelf said:

@kieranperez you can change your muscle type if you didnt know...from fast twitch to slow twitch and vice versa

I have a degree in exercise science. Only a third muscle type can shift between fast and slow twitch. But there is a threshold for how much this can occur. So no, you’re not quite correct. 

[AlwaysBeNice]

Realization is akin to magic powers, witches and evolution now? 

It's said that after realization, you realize it was always already the case, so you we're enlightened at birth and after and now.

Illusion falls away, you don't gain anything.

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, NoSelfSelf said:

@kieranperez you can change your muscle type if you didnt know...from fast twitch to slow twitch and vice versa

We are not saying that a human cannot change or grow in certain ways. But there are hard limits on what you can change. And it's also a question of how much work is involved in changing. Maybe you could change yourself, but it will take a lot of work, whereas some people are already born that way.