How long is it going to take before religion is gone?

[Truth Addict]

5 minutes ago, Andreas said:

Sorry about that! Didn't see it. I need to take a walk and clear my head then I am going to respond. 

No worries dude.

Do whatever needs to be done.

❤️

Edited April 20, 2019 by Truth Addict

[Andreas]

58 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

@Andreas

This is so great to hear.

We all don't like irrationality/bullshit, and we all want to stop it.

Some of the best ways around that issue, I personally find helpful, are meditation, mindfulness, and self-awareness (very great for deconstructing self-delusions).

And we also have very great and practical model that you're familiar with, which is Spiral Dynamics.

Spiral Dynamics is aiming to change the world by raising awareness of the individual and the collective.

I think you're doing great, and that you are at very high levels of Green.

Yet, it's not the end of the line, there are always more that we can all learn.

I suggest you focus more attention on transcending Green, while reading books and studying more about psychology and its dynamics in both individuals and communities.

Keep in mind that as you grow more and move up the Spiral you include instead of excluding.

That of course does not mean that you want others to stay irrational, that means that you develop a capacity for understanding them and having compassion for them instead of hatred.

I know that you already have compassion for everyone, I read through your whole discussion.

But what I think is missing, is a true application of your love to everyone, and that is how the ego-mind plays its tricks on us.

A terrorist did not have a choice whether to become a terrorist or not, as we observe from higer perspective, they were indoctrinated from birth.

And we can always go one step further, who indoctrinated them in the first place but people who were also indoctrinated from birth?

And that can go on forever.

What you want and what we all want is to break that chain, but see, by doing the same thing we dislike, we only create more of it, for we are overlooking the root issue, which is lack of awareness, not ideology really, and not religion really.

Human beings are ideological creatures, our lives are highly dependent on ideas, right?

I don't think we can resolve ideology with another ideology.

But I know that we can go meta on ideology, and observe it from higher, yet more compassionate, perspectives.

So, to conclude, what I think is needed is the following:

• Studying more about Yellow.
• Focusing on one's self more, and on others less.
• Mindfulness and self-inquiry.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts, I now see the world in a new light, and I'm full of hope that with people like yourself we're moving towards more peaceful places.

❤️

You are probably right about my limitations. I should see more perspectives and stop demonizing others. Operate from love, not fear. But it can be hard to know how to love someone when they themselves attack you or others out of fear or strong love for themselves. At least for me at this time. I think I need to do more introspection and solve some personal issues. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.  

[chromis]

Hi Andreas (and everyone else on this forum - this is my first post), 

I'm very, very tempted to say that I don't like irrationality and bullshit either. It also frustrated me, to no end. In a nutshell: I've been supposedly 'rational', I've been active on-and-off in a skeptical and 'freethinker' community for a substantial part of my life; I've once moderated discussions and I've debated 'extreme' people that could be easily labeled as arrogant, stigmatizers and brainwashers. That places me on a specific point on a spectrum that - reflecting on that - seems quite imaginary and arbitrary.

Sure, you can conjure up the (to you) most ridiculous, painful and naive instances of religion and spiritual practices (indeed: Youtube is full of them), but really, isn't that possible to do that for any subculture or viewpoint? In the end it seems (to me) that I personally have been part of a community that has a subset of people that simply loves to pummel and immerse themselves with (to their minds at least) the most ridiculous and awful things possible... just to keep those negative sentiments about those extremes alive.

One question (in your first post) was: How do you deal with religious groups emotionally and stop being distracted by them? 

I eventually became aware of the situation that I've described earlier and I wondered: why do such things (like: pummeling yourself like that) in the first place? Why the adverse feelings about such things, really? Do those feelings actually state something about the subject that evokes them... or about the experiencer (e.g. "me")? The answer to that question can only be found when you "look" 'inside', when you become more aware of the deeper layers of your personality "construct". Why are there such things in the first place?

At later (and last) moments in my active years in said communities I often pondered (and began to question) why I was debating (or facilitating such debating) with 'extremes', and eventually I realized that I was far more interested in the actual [hi]story (and motivation) of such others. How and why people think and believe certain things, even if they are extremely illogical, allowed me learn about myself because eventually I began to wonder about my own motivations, feelings and logic. "me" vs. "them" eventually turned to "me" vs. "me", and eventually that became far, far more fruitful.

I eventually navigated back towards my true skeptical roots, disregarding my 'selective-skeptical behaviors' that I was actually cultivating by said immersion. The immersion in question also closed my mind.

...and that is unfortunate, since there seems always some truth or some motivation that leads me to conclude things like "it could have easily been me if I was in their situation", if you dig deeper by asking questions that shows interest in the person rather than the messages they need to broadcast.

...pummeling myself regularly with extremes (and videos that would make me cringe) would effectively disable my mind into considering the possibility that "lesser extremes" (to to speak) or "moderates" could offer you something of value to you, personally. It made my thinking more black-and-white. In the end, in a difficult situation, I eventually met someone who believes and practices very different things than me - things that would have made me cringe if taken to the extreme - he was able to help me to emotionally grow on a level that I could not have imagined before... at least I was able to permit myself that. That is not to say that I've adopted his beliefs and practices, but at the very least I allow myself to play around with them without such adoption and nowadays with far, far less judgement... so it keeps my mind open, and I actually understand other perspectives far better than before.

...and in the end this also has led me here.

Edited April 20, 2019 by chromis

[now is forever]

shit is shit, if bullshit or horseshit doesn’t concern a fly 

[Andreas]

7 minutes ago, now is forever said:

shit is shit, if bullshit or horseshit doesn’t concern a fly 

Ok? 

[chromis]

Quite often, so it seems, we tend to believe that our own shit really smells like roses.

Perhaps it's roses (instead of turtles) all the way down?

[Truth Addict]

2 hours ago, Andreas said:

You are probably right about my limitations. I should see more perspectives and stop demonizing others. Operate from love, not fear. But it can be hard to know how to love someone when they themselves attack you or others out of fear or strong love for themselves. At least for me at this time. I think I need to do more introspection and solve some personal issues. Thank you for sharing your thoughts.  

❤️

Yes, it will take some time, but it's definitely possible to love the ones who hate you.

Think of humanity as one family, and you're one of them.

You want the best for the entire family without exception, I'm sure about that.

Still, some members have had a traumatic past, mixed with outdated ideas and a lot of brainwashing.

They hurt their brothers and sisters, and even their parents.

But they are still our family and we love them.

In this analogy, you represent the loving brother for the whole family.

What I think is important is that instead of acting from brother/sister perspective, we want to rise above and act from father/mother perspective.

Fathers/mothers love their children no matter what. They want them to be happy and safe no matter what.

Still, fathers/mothers can be tough and ground/punish their misbehaving children. But that doesn't decrease their love for their kids.

With Spiral Dynamics, we are aiming at becoming parent-like to all of humanity. That's what stage Yellow is about. Always the highest/most loving/most responsible perspective.

After all, anger/hatred will only produce suffering, whereas love/acceptance will produce peace and happiness.

Practising meditation and self-inquiry have helped me a lot.

I was born and raised as a fundamentalist Muslim, but now I see a bigger picture, and that's because I was lucky enough to find loving parents like Leo.

❤️

Edited April 20, 2019 by Truth Addict

[Arnold666]

But why argue? Why not read?  try Mircea Eliade History of religious ideas. Doesn't sound like a better solution? 

[Hellspeed]

Atheism, stuck in logic and reductionism, is worst than religion. Give thanks to religion, otherwise it will be a massacre in the streets. We cannot have a society with only one life phylosophy. The hospitals and the world are full of desease, not because of science incompetence, but because having a society that is anti-natural. 

[Andreas]

17 minutes ago, Hellspeed said:

Atheism, stuck in logic and reductionism, is worst than religion. Give thanks to religion, otherwise it will be a massacre in the streets. We cannot have a society with only one life phylosophy. The hospitals and the world are full of desease, not because of science incompetence, but because having a society that is anti-natural. 

Atheists don't start wars. They also don't mass-produce terrorists and cults. Atheists are more developed than religious people, that doesn't mean they are perfect. 

[Truth Addict]

11 minutes ago, Andreas said:

Atheists don't start wars. They also don't mass-produce terrorists and cults. Atheists are more developed than religious people, that doesn't mean they are perfect. 

It's right here.

The thing that is preventing you from evolving is the identity of an atheist.

With enough questioning, you will realise that you are not an atheist and that religious people are not religious, all of these categories will eventually collapse.

Right now, you think that you are an atheist, and that atheists are better than religious people, and that you're above all of their religious nonsense.

This identity is exactly what you want to get rid of if you want to become happy and contribute positively to the world.

Because see, you're defending an imaginary idea (you=atheist), just like the religious people do from your pov.

I hope you see how the mind plays its tricks on us.

Edited April 20, 2019 by Truth Addict

[Andreas]

10 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

It's right here.

The thing that is preventing you from evolving is the identity of an atheist.

I am not an atheist. Stop making assumptions about me. Seriously. My view is simply that theists are less developed than atheists.

[Truth Addict]

4 minutes ago, Andreas said:

My view is simply that theists are less developed than atheists.

Being less developed does not mean that one is better or worse than the other. This is a key insight from Spiral Dynamics, all is necessary.

37 minutes ago, Andreas said:

Atheists don't start wars. They also don't mass-produce terrorists and cults.

I hope I'm wrong, but it seems to me like you're cherry picking evidence to support that claim.

You're using a double-standard here, and in my experience, people usually tend to use double-standards when they're protecting something.

Apart from history, what is this that you're doing but raging war against theists?

Hatred is the only reason behind terrorism. Not ideology nor religion.

Plus, how convenient is it for an atheist to oversimplify and generalise such statements?

How do you know that ALL atheists can't be murderers? Why are you so convinced that they can't start wars or terrorism? Why are you sure that an atheist leader is not capable of doing massacres to their enemies?

Don't think that by admitting that atheists are not perfect, that by this you become just, and that they're off the hook. No.

If we are to be honest about this, then we must admit that ideology has nothing to do with war and terrorism.

Only hatred can start wars and cause terrorism.

[chromis]

I think it is fair(er) and more generic to state that 'blindingly accepting anything' could be regarded as "less developed", or: 'blindingly accepting only that what feels nice', for that matter, since that takes into a account a (to my experience a popular) reason for such accepting.

In the end most (and myself) fall prey to this I think. In my experience, many people that label themselves atheists take a different paradigm for granted on a much deeper level than theists do it, because this (materialistic b.t.w.) paradigm is so powerful since it seems to yield all those computers, atom bombs, metro systems and treadmills at the gym.

Wouldn't it be great to transcend one or both in such a way that - in practice and as a result - both 'camps' (or either one of these) do not have any emotional impact (negative or positive) on you?
 

 

[Andreas]

13 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

Being less developed does not mean that one is better or worse than the other. This is a key insight from Spiral Dynamics, all is necessary.

Yes. But it's still better for mankind as whole to have people not hit each other. That is, it is better for mankind to have people be more developed. That's why we go to school and have parents guide us on what is right, and what is wrong. They don't take the nondual approach because that would simply damage the child and society as a hole. 

 

16 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

I hope I'm wrong, but it seems to me like you're cherry picking evidence to support that claim.

Yes, that is wrong. Stage blue defends it's ideological position in a much more rigid and egotistical way than stage orange. Stage blue is in a nutshell stage red but moralistic and dogmatic. Stage orange builds it's truth upon rationalism and logic, which still has it's limitations but it's much more effective than dogma.

 

19 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

You're using a double-standard here, and in my experience, people usually tend to use double-standards when they're protecting something.

Apart from history, what is this that you're doing but raging war against theists?

Expressing frustration. I am not using a double standard, but I want religion and stage blue transcended into something more developed. I would also like to not be shamed and annoyed for doing a "sin". 

 

22 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

Hatred is the only reason behind terrorism. Not ideology nor religion.

Closemindedness and ego is the reason for hatred. Which is a big part of blue. You need to be irrational or stage blue in order to hold dogmatic, religious beliefs. 

 

26 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

Plus, how convenient is it for an atheist to oversimplify and generalise such statements?

I should correct myself, Atheists do not start RELIGIOUS wars. There is no religious terrorism or cults. Religion in itself have started countless wars. I am going to assume you were implying that I am an atheist for oversimplifying and generalizing such statements but that is not correct. I am not an atheist. 

 

33 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

How do you know that ALL atheists can't be murderers? Why are you so convinced that they can't start wars or terrorism? Why are you sure that an atheist leader is not capable of doing massacres to their enemies?

Beautiful strawman.

 

35 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

Don't think that by admitting that atheists are not perfect, that by this you become just, and that they're off the hook. No.

This thread was titled "How long is it going to take before religion is gone". Nothing about atheism. Just because I talk about a male killer doesn't mean there is no problem with a female killer. I just find dogmatic religion to be especially egotistical and frustrating. There are still problems with atheism. 

[now is forever]

2 hours ago, Andreas said:

Atheists don't start wars. They also don't mass-produce terrorists and cults. Atheists are more developed than religious people, that doesn't mean they are perfect. 

well some of the biggest wars where started by atheists... i‘m not sure where you learned political history but they where not updated since atheism exists... i guess.

so if you are not an atheist, can you name your relation to the existence or non existence of god? do you have any idea about what or what not it could be or are you simply not interested?

Edited April 20, 2019 by now is forever

[Truth Addict]

43 minutes ago, Andreas said:

Closemindedness and ego is the reason for hatred.

This.

Reflect on that conclusion, and you will resolve your hatred for religion once and for all.

Edited April 20, 2019 by Truth Addict

[Andreas]

16 minutes ago, now is forever said:

well some of the biggest wars where started by atheists... i‘m not sure where you learned political history but they where not updated since atheism exists... i guess.

so if you are not an atheist, can you name your relation to the existence or non existence of god? do you have any idea about what or what not it could be or are you simply not interested?

You can talk to me with some basic respect or I am simply going to ignore you. I consider myself an agnostic. 

 

19 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

This.

Reflect on that conclusion, and you will resolve your hatred for religion once and for all.

I understand and that is true. But as I have earlier said, It is not easy to ignore someone when they themselves attack you or others out of fear or strong love for themselves. At least for me at this time. I am simply experiencing frustration. Kind of like what many people do on this thread regarding my perspective. 

[now is forever]

@Andreas would you talk to me with some basic respect? i just asked you a question....your highness?

you don’t even see how you are aggressive towards me. 

i‘m a woman by the way. do you have a problem with that? for me rationalism is irrational if it’s hypocritical.

Edited April 20, 2019 by now is forever

[Truth Addict]

@Andreas

That's quite understandable, and it's just a phase.

I appreciate your openness about this matter.

You can also inquire into the nature of fear and frustration, they're coming out of love as well.

We're all here on earth to love each other, because Love is our nature.

❤️

Edited April 20, 2019 by Truth Addict