How long is it going to take before religion is gone?

[Andreas]

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

How would you reply if I made a post entitled: "How long is it going to take for horses to stop shitting?"

 

My post can’t be compared with an animals bodily function. 

Edited April 19, 2019 by Andreas

[now is forever]

well if i had something to say i‘d prescribe every parent psychological training. i‘d build a school for grown ups.

but as i don’t have anything to say it will take on forever. abusers are not always creating abusers as non abusers not always create non abusers - it’s not that simple.

[Andreas]

2 minutes ago, now is forever said:

well if i had something to say i‘d prescribe every parent psychological training. i‘d build a school for grown ups.

but as i don’t have anything to say it will take on forever. abusers are not always creating abusers as non abusers not always create non abusers - it’s not that simple.

I had an idea once of having a licence to be a parent. You need a licence to drive because you can hurt others so same thing. Well it turns out people get very mad very fast and you might create some type of civil war like the communists. Hard to implement.

[Forestluv]

8 minutes ago, now is forever said:

abusers are not always creating abusers as non abusers not always create non abusers - it’s not that simple.

No it’s not simple. Mind-body conditioning is complex and involves many genetic and environmental components. Prior abuse is a major risk factor, yet it’s not necessary. It just makes showing a different perspective easier. But yea, it’s more nuanced. 

[now is forever]

6 minutes ago, Andreas said:

I had an idea once of having a licence to be a parent. You need a licence to drive because you can hurt others so same thing. Well it turns out people get very mad very fast and you might create some type of civil war like the communists. Hard to implement.

yeah schools are really hard to implement - also driving licenses etc. also universities. it doesn’t have to be run by the state...

yes of course it’s hard to implement that’s why it’s a challenge.

Edited April 19, 2019 by now is forever
well for me it was more thinking about how people learn how to handle their dogs but not their children. in sense of learning what their needs are.

[now is forever]

14 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

No it’s not simple. Mind-body conditioning is complex and involves many genetic and environmental components. Prior abuse is a major risk factor, yet it’s not necessary. It just makes showing a different perspective easier. But yea, it’s more nuanced. 

a lot of abuse cases exist because people are overwhelmed/overstrained by situations they don’t have the right coaping mechanisms.

meditation alone could be already helping them to stay more calm. i suspect that most cases are out of affect if it is about punching and hitting.

Edited April 19, 2019 by now is forever

[Forestluv]

48 minutes ago, now is forever said:

a lot of abuse cases exist because people are overwhelmed/overstrained by situations they don’t have the right coaping mechanisms.

meditation alone could be already helping them to stay more calm. i suspect that most cases are out of affect if it is about punching and hitting.

From what I’ve seen, domestic violence is commonly associated with alcohol and drug abuse and psychiatric issues. More than being simply being overwhelmed with life. Starting a program of meditation, yoga and stress reduction would be a hard sell. As well, I think it would be insufficient.,Therapy and life skills teaching is needed as well. I tried to start initiatives in this area to no avail.

I tried to start a free meditation and life skills meeting for those in abusive environments in my town. It got zero interest. The only way people would attend is if it was mandated by the courts to stay out of jail, to get their kids back, or if they were payed to attend. I didn’t want to go that route. I wanted it to be voluntary - it didn’t fly.

[DrewNows]

@Andreasit is helpful to understand violence/nonviolence. What it is exactly, how it’s created and perpetuated by the mind. 

https://jkrishnamurti.org/content/isnt-comparison-form-violenc

discussion by David bohm and Krishnamurti I think. 

@Serotoninluvyou may be interested as well. There’s some good talks Krishnamurti has with David bohm on YouTube. Here’s one: 

title: the future of humanity part 1

 

 

Edited April 19, 2019 by DrewNows

[now is forever]

23 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

From what I’ve seen, domestic violence is commonly associated with alcohol and drug abuse and psychiatric issues. More than being simply being overwhelmed with life. Starting a program of meditation, yoga and stress reduction would be a hard sell. As well, I think it would be insufficient.,Therapy and life skills teaching is needed as well. I tried to start initiatives in this area to no avail.

I tried to start a free meditation and life skills meeting for those in abusive environments in my town. It got zero interest. The only way people would attend is if it was mandated by the courts to stay out of jail, to get their kids back, or if they were payed to attend. I didn’t want to go that route. I wanted it to be voluntary - it didn’t fly.

yeah of course alcohol and drug abuse are the hard cases - the other ones are the invisible ones. 

i would also say it has to be a program that is run by psychologists and pedagogues and voluntaries but state supported, decreed and financed.

the problem is really that people don’t get it, they are their children, that’s why. they don’t see that they don’t belong to them but to the universe.

Edited April 19, 2019 by now is forever

[Forestluv]

10 minutes ago, now is forever said:

yeah of course alcohol and drug abuse are the hard cases - the other ones are the invisible ones. 

i would also say it has to be a program that is run by psychologists and pedagogues and voluntaries but state supported, decreed and financed.

Ime, domestically violent homes generally involve alcohol and drugs issue. It is fuel to the fire. There are cases in which alcohol/drugs are not an issue - yet I’d say it’s the norm. 

I think state-sponsored social programs can be great. Yet any domestic violence program that does not put alcohol/drug as high priorities areas will be ineffective imo. 

[Nahm]

1 hour ago, Serotoninluv said:

The horse shitting metaphor pretty much cuts to the chase.

?

can only lead em to water though.

 

[Forestluv]

@DrewNows I think that is great for understanding psychological dynamics of violence/nonviolence and it could help a practitioner. I think there is also more to it. When one actually gets into domestically violent homes and is working with actual abusers, victims, psychosis, alcohol/drug abuse, DTs, blood and bruises - one needs a lot more than theory. It’s tough and tumble.,Frankly, theory often goes out the window, I’ve been in situations in which it looks like someone is gonna get hurt bad and I fear for my safety. Diffusing these situations takes a huge amount of social and intuitive skills. 

[DrewNows]

Just now, Serotoninluv said:

@DrewNows I think that is great for understanding psychological dynamics of violence/nonviolence and it could help a practitioner. I think there is also more to it. When one actually gets into domestically violent homes and is working with actual abusers, victims, psychosis, alcohol/drug abuse, DTs, blood and bruises - one needs a lot more than theory. It’s tough and tumble.,Frankly, theory often goes out the window, I’ve been in situations in which it looks like someone is gonna get hurt bad and I fear for my safety. Diffusing these situations takes a huge amount of social and intuitive skills. 

it's not theory dude, it's understanding the self. It really does help to see how violence is created within us. An individual has to be willing to learn about this directly see it within themselves and this can carry over to seeing a dangerous situation for what it is and being able to diffuse it without fear

alcohol/drugs = forms of escape but also lead to out of control situations. The under the radar home abuse is probably often without drugs

[Forestluv]

15 minutes ago, DrewNows said:

it's not theory dude, it's understanding the self. It really does help to see how violence is created within us. An individual has to be willing to learn about this directly see it within themselves and this can carry over to seeing a dangerous situation for what it is and being able to diffuse it without fear

alcohol/drugs = forms of escape but also lead to out of control situations. The under the radar home abuse is probably often without drugs

Yes. I know. It’s great stuff. I love it.

Yet go into actual domestic violence situations and see how far it gets you. There is more to it.

[DrewNows]

Just now, Serotoninluv said:

Yes. I know. It’s great stuff.

Go into actual domestic violence situations and see how far it gets you. There is more to it.

My parents fought, dad drank, we endured, a messy divorce. I have an idea of its complexity but this isn't the reason i was bringing it up. I just think it's relevant for the whole discussion of judging religion and seeing mechanical patterns of the mind/belief systems, understanding why people can't simply change if they don't know why they do/feel/think in a certain way. 

[Forestluv]

Just now, DrewNows said:

I just think it's relevant for the whole discussion of judging religion and seeing mechanical patterns of the mind/belief systems, understanding why people can't simply change if they don't know why they do/feel/think in a certain way. 

I didn’t realize that was your focus. I don’t mean to pull it out of context into another area. My apologies. 

I certainly see a lot of value in the context you describe above ? 

[Rilles]

14 hours ago, Andreas said:

I hate religion. Especially when they try to stigmatize you for not believing or brainwashing small children. The arrogant ones annoy me the most. There is nothing wrong with spirituality but religion is just pure irrationality and madness. When is this going to end? They break down societies by starting wars. How do you deal with religious groups emotionally and stop being distracted by them? 

A long time... Religion is still very fundamental and even in its beginning stages in Africa and the Middle-East, they need to go through their stage Blue stuff and that might take a long time. 

Edited April 19, 2019 by Rilles

[Arnold666]

Never. Read Jung, Gerardus van der Leeuw and Mircea Eliade. They called the human species Homo-religiousus. 

"Institutions are not pretty. Show me a pretty government. Healing is wonderful, but the American Medical Association? Learning is wonderful, but universities? The same is true for religion... religion is institutionalized spirituality." oh yeah, also Huston Smith. 

Edited April 19, 2019 by Arnold666

[mandyjw]

I had a religious upbringing, I'm really thankful for it now. It made me much more keenly aware of the dangers of being so dogmatic. I don't think I would have had the same connection with the mystic at a young age AND an awareness of the suffering caused by making a "me and other" if I have been raised by atheist parents. 

 

[now is forever]

28 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

I had a religious upbringing, I'm really thankful for it now. It made me much more keenly aware of the dangers of being so dogmatic. I don't think I would have had the same connection with the mystic at a young age AND an awareness of the suffering caused by making a "me and other" if I have been raised by atheist parents. 

 

and thus spoke marie magdalene?

don‘t get me wrong, i believe there are beautiful parts about religion but in some sense most of them are very dogmatic. the truth in them is sometimes what made them truths.

my church was nature.

Edited April 19, 2019 by now is forever