How long is it going to take before religion is gone?

[Andreas]

Just now, Shiva said:

A religious fundamentalist might say the same thing, "if you take a child to a modern school they will only learn rationality. They are not taught peoper religion anymore." For many people, their religion is rationalism. 

That's a problem too! Both of them destroy true exploration, open-mindedness and spirituality. Systematic destruction of people's life experience. I just find religion especially frustrating. 

[Commodent]

More developed countries tend to be more irreligious, take Sweden for example. So I can foresee religions going away, much like belief in spirits and black magic largely went away with religion.

[Forestluv]

9 minutes ago, Andreas said:

if you take a child and show irrational beliefs into them and never teach them to think rationally, then it's maltreatment. 

I have made that same argument many times in the past and think it has some value to it. Yet I now also considered another perspective.

I can see suffering related to indoctrination of "irrational" beliefs. Yet, I also see suffering related to indoctrination of "rational" beliefs. As well, I can see that what many consider "rational" beliefs are actually irrational.  

I would say trans-egoic post-rational modes of being have far less pain and suffering than egoic rational thinking modes. Is teaching egoic delusional rational beliefs to be maltreatment? By your rationale it seems like it would be. So why don't people just teach their children trans-egoic post-rational modes of being? . . . I would say because they lack the maturity and development to so.  

[Andreas]

2 minutes ago, Commodent said:

More developed countries tend to be more irreligious, take Sweden for example. So I can foresee religions going away, much like belief in spirits and black magic largely went away with religion.

I think the deeper problem is getting people to be less ideological overall. It creates a lot of problems generally. Should be taught in schools. 

[Andreas]

1 minute ago, Serotoninluv said:

I have made that same argument many times in the past and think it has some value to it. Yet I now also considered another perspective.

I can see suffering related to indoctrination of "irrational" beliefs. Yet, I also see suffering related to indoctrination of "rational" beliefs. As well, I can see that what many consider "rational" beliefs are actually irrational.  

I would say trans-egoic post-rational modes of being have far less pain and suffering than egoic rational thinking modes. Is teaching egoic delusional rational beliefs to be maltreatment? By your rationale it seems like it would be. So why don't people just teach their children trans-egoic post-rational modes of being? . . . I would say because they lack the maturity and development to so.  

I guess it's a spectrum of maltreatment we are dealing with. Some beliefs work better than others. Learning that you are evil if you do this and this break people over time. A lot of gay people with religious beliefs have this problem. People should learn to update their beliefs and question them whenever they see that something isn't working in their life. They should teach this in schools. 

[Sri McDonald Trump Maharaj]

Soon.

[Joseph Maynor]

The Ego-Mind loves to feel safe within the delusions of religious-like thinking.  The Ego-Mind is bullshitting itself though which is no good for one's personal development in the long run. 

Edited April 18, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[Forestluv]

4 minutes ago, Andreas said:

I guess it's a spectrum of maltreatment we are dealing with. Some beliefs work better than others. Learning that you are evil if you do this and this break people over time. A lot of gay people with religious beliefs have this problem. People should learn to update their beliefs and question them whenever they see that something isn't working in their life. They should teach this in schools. 

I can see value in that view. I can also see a view in which teaching someone they are a finite, separate self is incredibly harmful. It is the basis of human suffering. 

 

 

[Eric Tarpall]

If you get religion out of your own mind then it's gone. Everyone has to do that for himself. You can't really help people with that.

[DrewNows]

 

12 minutes ago, Andreas said:

I guess it's a spectrum of maltreatment we are dealing with. Some beliefs work better than others. Learning that you are evil if you do this and this break people over time. A lot of gay people with religious beliefs have this problem. People should learn to update their beliefs and question them whenever they see that something isn't working in their life. They should teach this in schools. 

This has actually been the goal for street epistemology over the years. As Eric says, this has to be a personal change, just like your view on religion. People still cling to there beliefs and don't fully understand why they ended up with the belief in the first place. Go ahead and search street epistemology on youtube and there are many interviews with people on a great method to help others dive into and question their beliefs. 

 

[Forestluv]

19 minutes ago, DrewNows said:

This has actually been the goal for street epistemology over the years. As Eric says, this has to be a personal change, just like your view on religion. People still cling to there beliefs and don't fully understand why they ended up with the belief in the first place. Go ahead and search street epistemology on youtube and there are many interviews with people on a great method to help others dive into and question their beliefs. 

I used to be really into those street epistemology videos. The psychology of it is fascinating and I think it can be helpful for some people.

I think he does it in a respectful way. Yet he also has attachments and identification with beliefs he considers rationale. As well as a subtle agenda. He is not purely curious about why people hold their beliefs as he tells his interviewees. He is trying to steer them toward what he considers rational thinking. I’ve seen seminars of his describing strategies on how to do this. 

Overall I think it’s good to encourage people to question and observe their beliefs, yet I sense a subtlety sneaky agenda with him. Yet I suppose nearly all humans as a fundamental component of an ego. It seems to get subtler and subtler as we evolve. I was seriously considering doing his style of street epistemology at  one time

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Andreas said:

My main point is that if you take a child and show irrational beliefs into them and never teach them to think rationally, then it's maltreatment. Kind of like never telling a kid that Santa Claus really isn't real instead of letting them grow up without learning to be sceptical and question his environment.

If you were skeptical and questioned yourself, you'd realize that you yourself are an irrational belief which was indoctrinated from an early age, and that "problems" are also a belief, are not real, but a fiction constructed by your mind.

So you are like that kid believing in Santa Claus (problems) and we are telling you to let it go. Be skeptical of problems and question whether they are real. Question your judgment of religion and reality.

Quote

That's a problem too! Both of them destroy true exploration, open-mindedness and spirituality. Systematic destruction of people's life experience.

Can you see how your judgment destroys true exploration, open-mindedness, and spirituality?

How can you be truly spiritual when you hate religion?

True spirituality is acceptance and love of whatever is.

By hating on religion you block yourself from being able to explore it openmindedly.

Your entire problem with religion is grounded in ego. See? And the whole point of spirituality is to become conscious of how your ego distorts reality. But you're overlooking all that because of your hatred for religion.

You are falling into the trap of the lesser Jihad. Just like how Islamic terrorists do. So you have more in common with Islamic terrorists than with the Buddha. To become a Buddha you must drop all judgment.

[Andreas]

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

If you were skeptical and questioned yourself, you'd realize that you yourself are an irrational belief which was indoctrinated from an early age, and that "problems" are also a belief, are not real, but a fiction constructed by your mind.

So you are like that kid believing in Santa Claus (problems) and we are telling you to let it go. Be skeptical of problems and question whether they are real. Question your judgment of religion and reality.

Can you see how your judgment destroys true exploration, open-mindedness, and spirituality?

How can you be truly spiritual when you hate religion?

True spirituality is acceptance and love of whatever is.

By hating on religion you block yourself from being able to explore it openmindedly.

Your entire problem with religion is grounded in ego. See? And the whole point of spirituality is to become conscious of how your ego distorts reality. But you're overlooking all that because of your hatred for religion.

You are falling into the trap of the lesser Jihad. Just like how Islamic terrorists do. So you have more in common with Islamic terrorists than with the Buddha. To become a Buddha you must drop all judgment.

Yes you can get a lot of wisdom out of religious texts if you filter out bullshit. No you don’t get anything out of it by being indoctrinated with all of their irrational beliefs. I think spirituality is amazing. Not a problem with that at all. If you feel there is wrong to critizise religion for mass-manipulation because it is grounded in ego then I can say it is wrong for you to critizise my perspective of critizising religion because it too is grounded in ego. I don’t think pointing out a flaw caused by the human ego is fundamentally selfish. 

[Nahm]

1 hour ago, Andreas said:

My main point is that if you take a child and show irrational beliefs into them and never teach them to think rationally, then it's maltreatment.

I agree. Convincing a kid there is a heaven and hell afterlife, and that God is judging them, imo, is child abuse. 

[Leo Gura]

@Andreas Don't project your hate onto me. I am not here to hate you or judge you or tell you are wrong. You can hate religion all you want. I'm merely pointing out that you are not being spiritual. If you are cool with not being spiritual or truthful, by all means, knock yourself out.

All criticism and judgment is delusion.

You are failing to accept/love: bullshit, abuse, manipulation, indoctrination, lying, etc. This is being done out of a lack of holistic perspective. You're not realizing how bullshit, abuse, manipulation, indoctrination, lying, etc. are all necessary for the Absolute Good of the universe.

You are trying to make reality conform to your fantasies of how it SHOULD be. This comes from arrogance. The arrogance of thinking you know better than God how reality should be. This is the textbook definition of devilry. The devil refuses to surrender to Truth/God/Love.

It is okay to be a devil. I accept you as the devil that you are because it cannot be otherwise. Devils cannot help being devils. I will love you even if you decide to keep being a devil

[Andreas]

3 minutes ago, Andreas said:

Yes you can get a lot of wisdom out of religious texts if you filter out bullshit. No you don’t get anything out of it by being indoctrinated with all of their irrational beliefs. I think spirituality is amazing. Not a problem with that at all. If you feel there is wrong to critizise religion for mass-manipulation because it is grounded in ego then I can say it is wrong for you to critizise my perspective of critizising religion because it too is grounded in ego. I don’t think pointing out a flaw caused by the human ego is fundamentally selfish. 

I think what your point is not to act out of hate and fear, but out of love. That’s true and I agree with that. But the problem still persists. 

[Forestluv]

2 minutes ago, Andreas said:

But the problem still persists. 

Why is this problem upsetting to you?

[Andreas]

Just now, Serotoninluv said:

Why is this problem upsetting to you?

I feel bad for the children, the adults who waste their energy and time, the victims of war caused by it and all the people who get fooled out of a spiritual, fullfiling life. 

[Leo Gura]

1 minute ago, Andreas said:

all the people who get fooled out of a spiritual, fullfiling life

How ironic! You are fooling yourself out of a spiritual life RIGHT NOW with this judgment.

[DrewNows]

30 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

I used to be really into those street epistemological videos. The psychology of it is fascinating and I think it can be helpful for some people.

I think he does it in a respectful way. Yet he also has attachments and identification with beliefs he considers rationale. As well as a subtle agenda. He is not purely curious about why people hold their beliefs as he tells his interviewees. He is trying to steer them toward what he considers rational thinking. I’ve seen seminars of his describing strategies on how to do this. 

Overall I think it’s good to encourage people to question and observe their beliefs, yet I sense a subtlety sneaky agenda with him. 

Yes i agree and think it's great in the sense of waking people up to their own irrationality. The interview/method is designed to promote openness and the dude does a great job at staying objective and allowing interviewees to deepen their understanding of beliefs. I speak of Anthony something rather, not sure we are speaking of the same dude but he claims to seek truth but whether he's an agnostic or atheist is beyond me.

I don't see it being too beneficial either, but found it intriguing and useful in understanding the structure of truth and beliefs. I did a little mock interview with Jack River a while ago asking him what was his strongly held belief. He said "I am a belief". It didn't work so well this way but it was kind of funny, me, pretending not to know what on earth he meant, just to see how it might unfold with the interviewer seeking truth