Is having good manners and being polite stage green values?

[Andreas]

My question is in the title. I didn't see those on the list in the mega-thread. 

Edited April 16, 2019 by Andreas

[Shadowraix]

Probably. I have yet to go in depth in spiral dynamics but my understanding is stage green is largely empathetic.

Yeah good manners are relative and dropping indoctrination can be influence to decide to not get offended by "bad manners"

but it is also good to be empathetic of those who do follow the status quo. They don't know any better. So I think a stage green would take this into account and practice being polite when the time calls for it. Use your behavior to reflect your understanding and goals. 

[Leo Gura]

That's a big part of Blue actually. Respect and believe your elders because they have absolute truth.

[Shadowraix]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

That's a big part of Blue actually. Respect and believe your elders because they have absolute truth.

Wouldn't it be more based on your intent and understanding when going about the behavior?

Politeness and respect because thats how things should blah blah yeah seems blue.

But doing it because you know they don't know any better and to be empathetic towards their perspective would be more green, no?

[Commodent]

@Shadowraix  "Politeness is the practical application of good manners or etiquette." Adhering to rules is a blue quality. It's important to distinguish between politeness and empathy (which is more of a green quality).

[Andreas]

I see. Toxic femininity at stage blue with ‘good’ manners. Need more authenticity.  Blue is decent. Green is also good but better for the self. Thanks. 

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Shadowraix said:

Wouldn't it be more based on your intent and understanding when going about the behavior?

Politeness and respect because thats how things should blah blah yeah seems blue.

But doing it because you know they don't know any better and to be empathetic towards their perspective would be more green, no?

Yes, the underlying motivation is the key moreso than any particular behavior. You can respectful at any stage of the Spiral. It's just that stage Blue values respect for tradition for its own sake and becomes rigid about it. For example, you must respect the Pope because he is a spokeman for the one true God, Lord Jesus Christ, and he is infallible. By not respecting him you will go to hell. Bow your head before the Pope or we may torture you for being a devil worshipper.

[ValiantSalvatore]

Compassion and empathy. Pluralism and egalitarianism. Are good terms for green.

Ethnocentrism is stage blue, especially when not taking in a larger perspective. Politeness just enforces the cultural norms of the country/culture, especially without any empathy, it's just rigidly sticking to the rules. It's more relative at stage green. If you are from a northern country you are most likely green. 

Martin Luther was angry against the Catholic church because of someone presenting a birthday cake to a Catholic priest, with a child inside. That was one trigger point which started his reformation of Christian religion. It was not against the 10 commandments in some way, anyway I can't recall the source otherwise I would mention it.

Spiral Dynamics are value codes within people. They are not types of people. This still triggers me.

[Shadowraix]

2 hours ago, Commodent said:

@Shadowraix  "Politeness is the practical application of good manners or etiquette." Adhering to rules is a blue quality. It's important to distinguish between politeness and empathy (which is more of a green quality).

I'm talking about being polite out of empathy. Because you know not being polite would hurt them and you wouldn't want to hurt them. So it becomes about caring about another than believing these are rigid rules that must be followed. 

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Yes, the underlying motivation is the key moreso than any particular behavior. You can respectful at any stage of the Spiral. It's just that stage Blue values respect for tradition for its own sake and becomes rigid about it. For example, you must respect the Pope because he is a spokeman for the one true God, Lord Jesus Christ, and he is infallible. By not respecting him you will go to hell. Bow your head before the Pope or we may torture you for being a devil worshipper.

Yes exactly what I was trying to get at. Thanks for the clarification. 

[CreamCat]

2 hours ago, Andreas said:

I see. Toxic femininity at stage blue with ‘good’ manners. Need more authenticity.  Blue is decent. Green is also good but better for the self. Thanks. 

If a woman showed good manners to me, I couldn't consider her toxic.

[CreamCat]

By the way, compassion and empathy don't always lead to good manners. You can say harsh things out of compassion. Tough love.

[Shadowraix]

2 minutes ago, CreamCat said:

By the way, compassion and empathy don't always lead to good manners. You can say harsh things out of compassion. Tough love.

Its a tricky topic. If you say harsh things to try to help fully knowing they don't want to hear it or aren't receptive to it then you ignore their feelings of it which becomes more about you asserting what you want them to do.

[Andreas]

1 hour ago, CreamCat said:

If a woman showed good manners to me, I couldn't consider her toxic.

Toxic to herself, it would hinder self expression. 

[Leo Gura]

The key thing to understand about good manners and etiquette is that they are all a social construction and a survival function. They are not absolute. The mistake that many stage Blue people make is they take manners, social norms, cultural customs, paying respect, tradition, etc as absolutes, and therefore normative. In other words, you SHOULD and MUST adhere to social norms. This is delusional.

As you become conscious and developed you will naturally respect people without making it a dogma or a should.

Manners, social norms, cultural customs, paying respect, tradition, etc become problematic when they are done mechanically in lieu of consciousness.

[Andreas]

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The key thing to understand about good manners and etiquette is that they are all a social construction and a survival function. They are not absolute. The mistake that many stage Blue people make is they take manners, social norms, cultural customs, paying respect, tradition, etc as absolutes, and therefore normative. In other words, you SHOULD and MUST adhere to social norms. This is delusional.

As you become conscious and developed you will naturally respect people without making it a dogma or a should.

Manners, social norms, cultural customs, paying respect, tradition, etc become problematic when they are done mechanically in lieu of consciousness.

Yes! You are absolutely right! I also think it’s wrong to expect people to have manners and teach it in schools. 

[now is forever]

3 hours ago, Andreas said:

Yes! You are absolutely right! I also think it’s wrong to expect people to have manners and teach it in schools. 

yes, you are right! teaching social skills would be nice if we started at kindergarden, if it stops at school what do we expect? either we continue it right or we stop it all together.