Posted April 16, 2019 5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said: Ken has a very robust grasp of awakening and nonduality, and much more. His work is not just about awakening, it is about stages of development and various kinds of pathologies in this work. Awakening is independent of one's stage of development. Both are important. To awaken but still be stuck at a low level of development is very common and dangerous. If your teaching only emphasizes awakening and nothing else, it is a narrow and incomplete teaching which will produce a lot of problems if it's taught to lots of people. Stages of development are extremely important and yet they are virtually unknown to most teachers and traditional teachings. Which is why so many spiritual practioners come out half-baked. Is ken wilber where you got your Zen devil concept from? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted April 16, 2019 7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said: Ken has a very robust grasp of awakening and nonduality, and much more. His work is not just about awakening, it is about stages of development and various kinds of pathologies in this work. Awakening is independent of one's stage of development. Both are important. To awaken but still be stuck at a low level of development is very common and dangerous. If your teaching only emphasizes awakening and nothing else, it is a narrow and incomplete teaching which will produce a lot of problems if it's taught to lots of people. Stages of development are extremely important and yet they are virtually unknown to most teachers and traditional teachings. Which is why so many spiritual practioners come out half-baked. You cannot understand stages of development by sitting on a meditation cushion, even if you are the best meditator in the world. Introspection is not enough. Do you have any actual evidence for this or are you just repeating something you read? Yeah, it's all love, but it's shit really. Makes 0 sense Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted April 16, 2019 7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said: Ken has a very robust grasp of awakening and nonduality, and much more. His work is not just about awakening, it is about stages of development and various kinds of pathologies in this work. Awakening is independent of one's stage of development. Both are important. To awaken but still be stuck at a low level of development is very common and dangerous. If your teaching only emphasizes awakening and nothing else, it is a narrow and incomplete teaching which will produce a lot of problems if it's taught to lots of people. Stages of development are extremely important and yet they are virtually unknown to most teachers and traditional teachings. Which is why so many spiritual practioners come out half-baked. You cannot understand stages of development by sitting on a meditation cushion, even if you are the best meditator in the world. Introspection is not enough. But some meditation techniques connect you to Love, and loving everything, including all of your shadow aspects. Surely stages of development are not needed if you have that. "Not believing your own thoughts, you’re free from the primal desire: the thought that reality should be different than it is. You realise the wordless, the unthinkable. You understand that any mystery is only what you yourself have created. In fact, there’s no mystery. Everything is as clear as day. It’s simple, because there really isn’t anything. There’s only the story appearing now. And not even that.” — Byron Katie Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted April 16, 2019 (edited) 9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said: Ken has a very robust grasp of awakeing and nonduality, and much more. His work is not just about awakening, it is about stages of development and various kinds of pathologies in this work. Awakening is independent of one's stage of development. Both are important. To awaken but still be stuck at a low level of development is very common and dangerous. This is about this, only mind can help mind. most people create a distinction between "enlightment monk style" and enlightment on the true nature of god, that is actuality. Enlightment is unfolding in many ways, there is big shift and little ones. only multiple experiences and building of the ego can help transcend. Edited April 16, 2019 by Aeris Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted April 16, 2019 8 minutes ago, David Hammond said: Is ken wilber where you got your Zen devil concept from? No, that concept is straight from Zen itself. Zen masters teach about Zen devils and Yako Zen, aka "wild fox Zen". Technically, a Zen devil is one who practices Zen without ever reading scriptures. And a wild fox is one who only reads about Zen without practicing. A Zen devil will say things like, "Who cares about the suffering of others? I am liberated and suffering is an illusion so nothing matters." Or stuff like, "Who cares about global warming? The world is an illusion anyways." You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted April 16, 2019 1 minute ago, David Hammond said: Is ken wilber where you got your Zen devil concept from? 6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said: Ken has a very robust grasp of awakening and nonduality, and much more. His work is not just about awakening, it is about stages of development and various kinds of pathologies in this work. Awakening is independent of one's stage of development. Both are important. To awaken but still be stuck at a low level of development is very common and dangerous. If your teaching only emphasizes awakening and nothing else, it is a narrow and incomplete teaching which will produce a lot of problems if it's taught to lots of people. I agree with this I think it's genius what ken is getting at. So easy to neglect your personal life when seeking enlightenment and end up in tricky situations I've been there and seen it happen to lots of people. It's all linked in living a better life, personal growth may not be directly linked to progressing with becoming more conscious but it can be if you want it to. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted April 16, 2019 1 hour ago, David Hammond said: @kieranperez I was perfectly happy to have a civil discussion about ken wilber. Still Am. But you had to make it personal. Another great amdertisement for therapy and the integral model! You came onto this thread and said "@kieranperez wilber doesn't know what he's talking about " That's just not a discussion to me. "But you had to make it personal." >>> but also you "You're a few biscuits short of a barrel" ???????? You have like five unanswered comments from him? What are you expecting from this for you and for him? It honestly looks like you just threw a fit and I'm honesty surprised mods didn't take over for thread-hijacking Comprehensive list of techniques: https://sites.google.com/site/psychospiritualtools/Home/meditation-practices I appreciate criticism! Be as critical/nitpicky as you like and don't hold your blows Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted April 16, 2019 @Leo Gura Would you say trungpa was a Zen devil? Because wilber is saying he was an asshole. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted April 16, 2019 (edited) 23 minutes ago, zambize said: You came onto this thread and said "@kieranperez wilber doesn't know what he's talking about " That's just not a discussion to me. "But you had to make it personal." >>> but also you "You're a few biscuits short of a barrel" ???????? You have like five unanswered comments from him? What are you expecting from this for you and for him? It honestly looks like you just threw a fit and I'm honesty surprised mods didn't take over for thread-hijacking What's wrong with making a comment that wilber doesn't know what he's talking about? It's not really something to enrage a mentally stable person, is it? Are you always playing the blame game? Every time I get a new troll from you it's about how I managed to piss someone off. What exactly is it in doing that's so offensive to a normal person? (never mind a supposedly conscious group of people)? You think it wasn't warranted to mention that the guy does indeed have a few screws loose after that verbal abuse? You think people should just stand there and take verbal abuse and let the other person gaslight them by denying that they were being hostile? Have YOU got a few screws loose? Because you seem to have some kind of chip on your shoulder and a need to condition me to serve your needs. Sorry, I don't pander to overly sensitive and irrational egos. Edited April 16, 2019 by David Hammond Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted April 16, 2019 (edited) 19 minutes ago, zambize said: You came onto this thread and said "@kieranperez wilber doesn't know what he's talking about " That's just not a discussion to me. "But you had to make it personal." >>> but also you "You're a few biscuits short of a barrel" ???????? You have like five unanswered comments from him? What are you expecting from this for you and for him? It honestly looks like you just threw a fit and I'm honesty surprised mods didn't take over for thread-hijacking I think you have an issue. There was a discussion in full.swing before Kieran decided to hurl verbal abuse. Work on yourself. Yeah? Don't Just put up the pretence of being a loving person while following around others you don't like and asking them to jump to your egoic expectations. Actually do the work. Then people will take you seriously. Currently you just look like a hypocrite. Edited April 16, 2019 by David Hammond Spelling Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted April 16, 2019 27 minutes ago, David Hammond said: @Leo Gura Would you say trungpa was a Zen devil? Because wilber is saying he was an asshole. I don't know who trungpa is. If a teacher is an asshole, then yeah, I'd say he's got some devil in him. He has more work to do. He can be awake but he has a repressed shadow which needs work. There are also degrees of awakening. Such a perosn may not have awoken to absolute Love for example, which is why he's still an asshole. It's pretty easy to realize no-self without realizing God or Love or Goodness and be an asshole. Which is why a good Zen master will drive his students to go deeper after their first kensho. The first kensho is just the beginning. A good master will not let a student stop at the first kensho. There is what's called post-satori practice. "If you cannot weep for a person who is crying, there is no kensho." -- Yamada Koun You are God. You are Truth. You are Love. You are Infinity. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted April 16, 2019 (edited) 13 minutes ago, David Hammond said: What's wrong with making a comment that wilber doesn't know what he's talking about? It's not really something to enrage a mentally stable person, is it? Are you always playing the blame game? Every time I get a new troll from you it's about how I managed to piss someone off. What exactly is it in doing that's so offensive to a normal person? (never mind a supposedly conscious group of people)? You think it wasn't warranted to mention that the guy does indeed have a few screws loose after that verbal abuse? You think people should just stand there and take verbal abuse and let the other person gaslight them by denying that they were being hostile? Have YOU got a few screws loose? Because you seem to have some kind of chip on y9uur shoulder and a need to.condition me to serve your needs. Sorry, I don't pander to overly sensitive and irrational egos. Lot of questions, not all of them I'm going to answer. But your first one about "What's wrong with making a comment etc..." Nothing was wrong, I'm just pointing out to you that on the majority of threads, you aren't actually interested in having a debate. You continuously butt heads with trolls, and troll yourself meanwhile. What I'm trying to say is it might not be just them, it's the way you come onto threads and just make comments with what seems to be zero thought. You literally said he doesn't know what he's talking about, and that's it. ????? There's a reason you have issues with a lot of people, and I'm just letting you know I think it's because you come off as arrogant and don't seem to put any thought into helping other people. Err as far as me having screw loose, probably, Idk I journal it from time to time, if you got anything to say about me I'd love to hear it though just make yo claim Edited April 16, 2019 by zambize Comprehensive list of techniques: https://sites.google.com/site/psychospiritualtools/Home/meditation-practices I appreciate criticism! Be as critical/nitpicky as you like and don't hold your blows Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted April 16, 2019 3 minutes ago, David Hammond said: It's not really something to enrage a mentally stable person, is it? 6 minutes ago, David Hammond said: You think it wasn't warranted to mention that the guy does indeed have a few screws loose after that verbal abuse? How insecure are you that you’re trying to trash my mental health lol? All that you’re showing at this point is your own insecurity, ignorance, and self bias. Fortunately I’ve had to develop thicker skin over my years to understand and deal with ignorance like this from other people so I don’t take too much by it. All that you’re doing is projecting stuff that has everything to do with you and nothing to do with me. Let me make this clear... I was shutting up your arrogant dogma on the subject. I was belittling your behavior and attitude. Not you. I don’t know you. I know nothing about you and you know nothing about me, Ken Wilber, Leo, @zambize, and anybody else you’ve never met in your life. If you haven’t met them, you don’t know and it’s as simple as that. I don’t know how many more times I need to say this. You want to make remarks about my mental health, go ahead dude lol. I really don’t care. I also have been suicidal plenty of times. Have at that if you want lol. I’m tired of getting your notifications. People on here are finding the vide I posted insightful except you. That’s fine. You have your opinion. You have your opinion. Cool. I’m point out a dogmatic attitude and I don’t really play coy with that. I’m not perfect. I have a lot of issues that I’ve shared in other posts. I’m vulnerable on here. Where’s your humility? I never made any personal attacks on you. If you think me calling out your dogmas and arrogance as a personal attack on you, that just shows how attached you are to your own stories, opinions, paradigms, and dogmas. You are not your ideas, beliefs, opinions, etc. So me calling you out on that wouldn’t be an attack on you if you weren’t identified with that in someway in the first place. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Posted April 16, 2019 Thread locked as requested by OP within the thread Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
