Leo is a hardcase not enlightened

[Dumb Enlightened]

8 minutes ago, whoareyou said:

 

I disagree and would say that he doesn't always maintain his humility. Some other users stated that as well. A lot of the times when he gets criticized, and responds - he goes in a pure defense mode and justifies why he is right (without considering the possibility of being wrong). Another user even in this thread posted how he called some guy a "sheep", because he disagreed with his opinion. One of the traps of this process, is it is very easy to build up a "spiritual" EGO.

You can also have an ' spiritual EGO' pretending to be humblest and loving being, I will sit  calmly with a serene expression, talking how I love everyone and how everything is love and how love is the answer LOL. Then I'll be an enlightened master for sure and people will follow me, There's lots of "masters" like this, how can we know who is real or not ?
We can't, we go and have the realization, and each one of us will resonate with a different kind of teacher, I prefer teachers who cut the love crap and go straight to the point, like Ralston, Spira, or Mckenna, and some people will prefer the others, so we just do our job and find for ourselves.

[OmniYoga]

@Dumb Enlightened  how can we know who is real or not ? it's not perfect method but - intuition and authenticity, I guess still the best tool we have

even more genuinely would be just being around them 72h and just observe, I guess (maybe not) that time is enough to for the shadow to come up, but unfortunately hard logistically,
you would have the a comparison picture to what they preach in seminars/videos/ books etc

Edited April 16, 2019 by OmniYoga

[Dumb Enlightened]

2 minutes ago, OmniYoga said:

@Dumb Enlightened  how can we know who is real or not ? it's not perfect method but - intuition and authenticity, I guess still the best tool we have

 

Intuition for sure that's a great tool, but authenticity ? How do you define what authenticity is ? it's a concept, isn't it ? You define "an enlightened guy should do this and that and that, and if he doesn't well he's not the real deal..."
 

[whoareyou]

@Dumb Enlightened Yes those are 2 extremes. You can tell when it's genuine or not - using your intuition and observation of  how congruent is the person's behavior in the long run. You can also tell from experience, by seeing different teachers and how they are.

You will know who is being authentic and who is not, when you become authentic yourself. Simple as that.

[OmniYoga]

@Dumb Enlightened  How do you define what authenticity is ? it's a concept, isn't it ?
not at all - it's real thing, it's a way of being
are you true to your core - or you try to mange and control things - so your ego gets certain outcome you want
not easy to put it in words
it's one thing you learn in pickup
women are more drawn to authenticy and reject fakeness
that's why they shittest men
problem is sometimes you don't even know what is authentic to you
that's why finding yourself is such a big quest

you can read Osho - Intimacy if you would like to grasps more about it

 

[outlandish]

29 minutes ago, whoareyou said:

Shutting up and not talking about it would be much harder than talking about it. If you have had "crazy awakening" experiences yourself with 5-MEO or other strong psychedelics, you would know that the first thing you would want to do is talk about it. Yup more ego. I know this purely from my own experience.

I guess everyone reacts to the experience differently. Personally I find it so paradoxical and out-of-bounds that I'm pretty much befuddled by how to even begin to talk about it. I'm finding it difficult to talk about talking about it. I think fundamentally you can't actually talk about it with any accuracy, but some people have the ability to F the ineffable, and point people along in roughly the right direction.

Sometimes you have to walk around the world to come back home.

 

38 minutes ago, whoareyou said:

I am glad that you brought up an analogy with Olympic athletes. LEO comes from a self-development background, so it is natural for him to apply the same type of process for "enlightenment". The thing is, it works for every field but "enlightenment"! Because "enlightenment" is not something that can be achieved, or reached. If you think that you do X and Y - and some day in the future you will become "enlightened", that day will NEVER come. Because everything happens in this present moment, as cliche as it sounds. So what you will end up doing is chasing your own tail. 

I like the olympic analogy too because it's perfectly the opposite of enlightenment, but also very related. I think we see eye to eye that enlightenment is not an achievement. By it's very definition, enlightenment isn't something that can be achieved. My big critique of this community is that many people seem to be chasing the gold medal of enlightenment, wondering how they can get it, why isn't so-and-so fully enlightened yet even though (s)he's been meditating/self-enquiring/dosing for X years, who is and who is not enlightened, (humblebrag) look at me and how enlightened I am. I honestly think it's better to not even bother talking enlightenment because it just gives most people the wrong idea and becomes a stumbling block. Any buddhist community I've come into contact with or participated in doesn't really talk about enlightenment, and wisely so IMO.

Yet, if we sit on our ass and don't even bother trying to move forward, a life can be wasted away. Yet... paradoxically, it's sitting on our ass, without interfering, that's exactly the prescription for realization.

Similarly an athlete who fantasizes about standing on the olympic podium will miss all the moments, all the "nows" in their training, their performance that could lead them to the podium, and they'll get quickly frustrated at how much work is involved in achieving that gold for "I". On the other hand, the greatest athletes have a great presence of being in the moments of training, in competition and games. They aren't thinking about gold at peak performance, and paradoxically that's the only way to get there.

I can see how the thirst for enlightenment can be a motivator, so I try not to get my shirt in a knot too badly about all this. But sometimes I do get a bit grumpy about the topic 

[Dumb Enlightened]

26 minutes ago, OmniYoga said:

@Dumb Enlightened  How do you define what authenticity is ? it's a concept, isn't it ?
not at all - it's real thing, it's a way of being
are you true to your core - or you try to mange and control things - so your ego gets certain outcome you want
not easy to put it in words
it's one thing you learn in pickup
women are more drawn to authenticy and reject fakeness
that's why they shittest men
problem is sometimes you don't even know what is authentic to you
that's why finding yourself is such a big quest

you can read Osho - Intimacy if you would like to grasps more about it

 

Yeah and who gets to chose who's authentic, the ego/mind ? Cause authenticity and non-authenticity is a duality or is it absolute ?
once again, what core ? the ego/mind ? the heart ?

If you remove all your minds concepts, remove all your beliefs, all your meanings , will you still have a core ?

if you dig deep enough there's nothing there, no core, no true 'me' , there's only being, and even this conversation that we are having means nothing, 

people want to have better egos, they don't want the truth

[Dumb Enlightened]

41 minutes ago, whoareyou said:

@Dumb Enlightened Yes those are 2 extremes. You can tell when it's genuine or not - using your intuition and observation of  how congruent is the person's behavior in the long run. You can also tell from experience, by seeing different teachers and how they are.

You will know who is being authentic and who is not, when you become authentic yourself. Simple as that.

and when you awaken there'll be no who. 

[whoareyou]

@outlandish Yes and this is why even some non-duality teachers don't use the word "enlightenment" and use "liberation" instead.

Sure in the beginning it could be used as a motivator to get somebody interested, but would have to get dropped pretty soon afterwards, which is not easy to do. Imo the best source for motivation usually involves intense suffering or authentic curiosity for deeper truth. Just plan curiosity without a promised reward at the end.

I agree that we should drop the whole "enlightenment" thing, and instead strive to live more conscious lives. So don't seek, but bring intensity and awareness as much as possible into everyday life. And measure your "success" by how conscious you are everyday and how you deal with challenges - as those are the ultimate test to how conscious one is. Psychedelics, self-inquiry, retreats, would actually be way more effective without having an "enlightenment" goal.

The other issue like you said, is with seeking - a lot of people end up doing too much mental masturbation. They are caught up in concepts, and don't get much direct experience.

[OmniYoga]

@Dumb Enlightened

3 hours ago, Dumb Enlightened said:

Yeah and who gets to chose who's authentic, the ego/mind ? Cause authenticity and non-authenticity is a duality or is it absolute ?
once again, what core ? the ego/mind ? the heart ?

If you remove all your minds concepts, remove all your beliefs, all your meanings , will you still have a core ?

if you dig deep enough there's nothing there, no core, no true 'me' , there's only being, and even this conversation that we are having means nothing, 

people want to have better egos, they don't want the truth

aaawww you're caught in words
I guess heart will be the closest one you can get at the moment,

that is the whole point of spirutally or aweken - transcend lizard brain, biological needs, ego desieres, social conditioning - and see what is there authenthic to you

[Aaron p]

All I know is, enlightenment is the realisations that enlightenment doesn't exist, but also that nothing else exists. And the only thing that matters is finding myself. It's true that you can't achieve enlightenment, but this realisation *IS* enlightenment. I don't care for doctrine or dogma, the proof of tht pudding is in the eating...and leo has done plenty of eating from the fruit on the tree of life

[Nahm]

@Dumb Enlightened Why do you think anyone you feel is enlightened, did?

[Nahm]

18 minutes ago, Aaron p said:

but also that nothing else exists

Just a head’s up, you can check nonexistence off the list of things to worry about. There’s no such thing. It doesn’t-exist.

[Dumb Enlightened]

1 hour ago, OmniYoga said:

@Dumb Enlightened

aaawww you're caught in words
I guess heart will be the closest one you can get at the moment,

that is the whole point of spirutally or aweken - transcend lizard brain, biological needs, ego desieres, social conditioning - and see what is there authenthic to you

In the absolute sense there's no you, there's isn't, get over it, but even if we are gonna talk about the relative state (dream state) each individual has it's unique "core' and purpose, if some psychopath has a desire to kill people and then he does, he's being authentic to his heart,

This thing that a " authentic " person needs to be loving, and caring and whatever, it's a concept from the duality of good and bad, right and wrong,

So there'll be teachers who are loving and talk nicely , trying not to hurt your precious feelings, and other teachers won't give a shit about your feelings and will tell the truth, and both are talking from their " heart"

If you think that you can define what is an authentic heart, your mind has got you,

There's a time and place for different levels of truth, here in the meditation/consciousness session, I think we can start to tell the truth more, and not to be worried to hurt anyone's feelings, the truth is that there's no you to be authentic, there's only the self/god, so all this conversation is useless, there's no Leo, there's no you, there's no me.

 

[Dumb Enlightened]

44 minutes ago, Nahm said:

@Dumb Enlightened Why do you think anyone you feel is enlightened, did?

I didn't get what you asked,

I don't say everyone is enlightened, I think that the mind can't judge who's authentic or not, but we can check if what they say is true or not, just doing the practices,

Someone watched a video from Leo, didn't believe it, what's the solution ? That's obvious, I'll open a thread complaining and saying how he's full of shit, or better, I'll shot a 40 min long video for YT,  complaining and saying how he's full of shit,

Doing the practices to see if what he says is true or not and grasp it for myself ?? Nooo, it takes too long, I'll intellectualize and think about it, that's the solution

[Forestluv]

6 hours ago, whoareyou said:

You will know who is being authentic and who is not, when you become authentic yourself. Simple as that.

Ime, this is generally true - yet there can also be a dynamic in which one person is authentic and naive - and the other person takes advantage of that. I’ve been in a couple relationships in which I was authentic, yet I was also naive and a sucker. Even today, there are certain areas I have difficulty spotting authenticity because I have a filter that wants to see the best in others. 

There are other areas in which I was an insincere bullshitter - and later worked through it to become authentic. In these areas, it’s completely obvious when people have inauthentic underlying dynamics. At times the old saying “you can’t bullshit a bullshitter” rings true.

[OmniYoga]

14 hours ago, Dumb Enlightened said:

In the absolute sense there's no you, there's isn't, get over it.

@Dumb Enlightened
ok then
who wrote that?
who is reading this?

[Dumb Enlightened]

6 minutes ago, OmniYoga said:

@Dumb Enlightened
ok then
who wrote that?
who is reading this?

When you're dreaming and you're fucking a hot girl, who are you fucking ? Who's doing that ?? 

 

 

 

Edited April 17, 2019 by Dumb Enlightened

[OmniYoga]

@Dumb Enlightened 
am I dreaming you
or are you dreaming me?
haha

[OmniYoga]

@whoareyou

23 hours ago, whoareyou said:

@outlandish Yes and this is why even some non-duality teachers don't use the word "enlightenment" and use "liberation" instead.

Sure in the beginning it could be used as a motivator to get somebody interested, but would have to get dropped pretty soon afterwards, which is not easy to do. Imo the best source for motivation usually involves intense suffering or authentic curiosity for deeper truth. Just plan curiosity without a promised reward at the end.

I agree that we should drop the whole "enlightenment" thing, and instead strive to live more conscious lives. So don't seek, but bring intensity and awareness as much as possible into everyday life. And measure your "success" by how conscious you are everyday and how you deal with challenges - as those are the ultimate test to how conscious one is. Psychedelics, self-inquiry, retreats, would actually be way more effective without having an "enlightenment" goal.

The other issue like you said, is with seeking - a lot of people end up doing too much mental masturbation. They are caught up in concepts, and don't get much direct experience.

I feel like we are on the same boat.


anyway this topic went way too far than I expected,
my intention wasn't criticize or laugh at Leo, (it's not personal) I hope he is not identify himself with his teachings

all I wanted was to point out an obstacale, that Leo might manifested
when you're so obsses on something you're to close to see that you're digging the wrong tunnel
so you're chasing your own tail
or the the holy grail, which doesn't exist (a phantom)
and you miss the whole point
like there is a beautiful carnaval of life outside the window
but all you do is focusing on that one speck of dirt on that window, which you call enligthmented (I need this, I crave it - which only creates more resistance)
instead of enjoying life now all of the sudden, you need happiness with capital H, you need love with capital L, good with capital G, nonduality - you named a list of new requirements
only then you will be worth it, you will be there
fuck that
why instead of chasing or pursuing enlightenment, like the donkey with the carrot
simply just attract it and let it land, let it come to by your way of living and the person you become
and not missing a life

Edited April 17, 2019 by OmniYoga