Stage orange limits and fails?

[Nivsch]

Leo gave some good points and i want a bigger list.

Becuase we lost the election in Israel and the two sectors (cons. Vs liberals) remained exactly the same size (which means the conservatives won again....) - I want to teach the liberal (orange-green sector) activists the yellow strategy to make them the ability to go meta and make blue-orange people recognize the necessity of stage green.

So orange limits that i know:

1. Capitalism damage our health and environment.

2. More money wont make you satisfied.

3. We all want to be part of social communications.

What can i say more to help people see stage green?

 

 

Edited April 13, 2019 by Nivsch

[Zizzero]

1 hour ago, Nivsch said:

What can i say more to help people see stage green?

Not by showing them a list of orange's limits and fails. People wont respond well if they sense that your agenda is to try to change their world view. It's not as simple as: "Let's debate and my green facts are gonna make you realize the necessity to expand your worldview"

If you want to help people move up; stop pushing them. Instead; remove what's preventing them from moving up. We have a natural drive to move up, so; eliminate the reason they don't.

Edited April 13, 2019 by Zizzero

[Nivsch]

I understand but what to say to them?

[bejapuskas]

@Nivsch  I tried to move my mum up the spiral by talking, it didn't go well. Then I stopped talking and started doing. Today is my birthday and she said that she admires me for what I do everyday. She even sat with my in zazen once, I think she will start practicing regularly very soon.  I know it's hard to influence more people than just your family, but you would have to work really hard and be careful about it (go for it, if you feel like it's your purpose). Also I think that younger generation is a lot smarter in general so we are good, just don't do something totally stupid, like nuclear war. 

[Nivsch]

What we have to do as a political group of young activists - to stop all our activities? 

Or only give flyers and show what our party did or planning?

What would you do if you were in a political group and try to do yellow strategy?@bejapuskas @Zizzero

[Nivsch]

@bejapuskas what did you do and what is the main stage of your mum and of yours?

What did she start practicing?

 

Edited April 14, 2019 by Nivsch

[bejapuskas]

@Nivsch  I am not a politician, so I don't really know what kind of strategy will I choose. Also we need to first go through stage green. 

I always set one goal, like start meditating, start going to the gym, connect with interesting people and worked on it every single day.

She began to see that I am starting to be genuinely happier and nicer (even though I had many ego backlashes in the process) and got interested.

Do you not know what is zazen meditation? You should google it  It focuses on breaking pride and bad thinking habits.

Edit: My main stage is probably green and my parents are mainly blue

Edited April 14, 2019 by bejapuskas

[CreamCat]

15 hours ago, Nivsch said:

I want to teach the liberal (orange-green sector) activists

Orange and green are only liberal relative to Blue. They may feel restrictive and oppressive to other stages.

I often find liberalism oppressive. Liberalism is a misnomer. Also, devils often mean personal power or control over others when they say liberalism. It is just somewhat less oppressive than authoritarianism.

It seems devils didn't think hard enough about what it means to be liberated.

I'd say one limitation of Orange and Green is incompetently developed notions of liberalism.

Edited April 14, 2019 by CreamCat

[Zizzero]

6 hours ago, Nivsch said:

What we have to do as a political group of young activists - to stop all our activities? 

Or only give flyers and show what our party did or planning?

What would you do if you were in a political group and try to do yellow strategy?@bejapuskas @Zizzero

Ask your political opponents why they disagree with you - and listen. You wrote in your first post:

17 hours ago, Nivsch said:

I want to teach the liberal (orange-green sector) activists the yellow strategy to make them the ability to go meta and make blue-orange people recognize the necessity of stage green.

The idea of Spiral Dynamics is that you move up the spiral to adapt to newer, more complex challenges. You can't make a newborn see the necessity of stage green because he is very concerned with beige issues because that's where he is at in life. 
A more helpful question would be: Why are stage blue-orange people seeing a necessity of staying in blue-orange?

Something I believe to observe is that a key difference between green and yellow is humbleness. Yellow is very humble and open. Green, however, likes to make everything about green; green believes that everyone should be green, everyone should talk about green topics and use green tools. 

If you want someone else to move up the spiral, you cannot make this about you. You cannot expect others to be open to learn about your perspective when you aren't open to learn theirs. Now, that's a tricky thing; you learned about this fancy SD-theory and you already integrated blue and orange; basically, blue-orange people should become green and not you should become blue-orange. If that applies to you, then you demand openness from other people, but you don't practice it yourself.

What you have to do to reach your goal is this: Create an environment where the ego doesn't cling to its views; make it ok for people to change their views on fundamental matters. How do you do that? By personifying this belief yourself. How about going up to a blue-orange person and instead of going in with the mindset: "I want to persuade you", you say: "This is something we disagree on. Can you explain why you support this policy?" Make it about them; validate their perspective and don't label what they say as "stage blue", "short-sighted" or "driven by fear". Try to understand on a deep level why they believe what they believe and be genuinely open to have your mind changed; allow them to change your mind. Ironically, by doing this, you will move more and more into deep yellow yourself. What might help you is the fact that your political views are not determined by SD; there's more factors like personality, gender or social conditioning that influence your political stance; so if you assume that everyone on the right is below green, that's a fallacy; there are a lot of amazing or integral ideas in right wing politics; discover them.

Basically, what green needs to realize is that it doesn't have to wear an orange coat to be heard; focus on what makes green amazing: letting go of making a competition out of everything and loving things just for how they are. Show orange that it's ok to be vulnerable - and nothing makes you more vulnerable than agreeing with the side you fought against and saying you were wrong - and instead of explaining the benefits of green, focus on integrating green yourself. Make it so that when an orange person doubts his orange worldview, his ego allows him to learn your perspective and instead of saying: "told you I was right all along", you just say how you see things and you already exemplified that there's nothing wrong with admitting you were wrong.

 

Now, what I just wrote is SD focused; it's on actually helping people move up the spiral. Remember; moving people up the spiral might not have the result on democratic decisions that you like; that belief would be rooted in the deeper belief that your perspective is the right one and if people would move up they would realize the necessity of your values.
If your goal is simply to get more politicians that you like in power or change certain policies; study psychology and political sciences. The key to winning elections is not to persuade people on the other side of the political spectrum, it's to mobilize the people on your side to actually go and vote.

[Nivsch]

@Zizzero thank you for the in-depth answer.

I want to make Israel a country i can proud of,  like marine-sided north european country (for the beginning deep stage green country is sufficient to me ? ) and doing more liberal policy for the citizens and minorities from any kind and LGTBQ rights. Right now 55% of the population in israel is blue-orange and force ALL of us right-wing depressive government which doesnt care of the micro problems of the citizen and cares only the macro things (like a machine ?‍♂️) and i want to make soft-right wing people to move just a little bit into the center and thats enough for them to change their vote in the next election. 

Edited April 14, 2019 by Nivsch

[CreamCat]

Zizzero wrote it's better to inspire people into different views by showing your growth than to convince people of different views.

[Emerald]

On 4/13/2019 at 5:52 PM, Nivsch said:

Leo gave some good points and i want a bigger list.

Becuase we lost the election in Israel and the two sectors (cons. Vs liberals) remained exactly the same size (which means the conservatives won again....) - I want to teach the liberal (orange-green sector) activists the yellow strategy to make them the ability to go meta and make blue-orange people recognize the necessity of stage green.

So orange limits that i know:

1. Capitalism damage our health and environment.

2. More money wont make you satisfied.

3. We all want to be part of social communications.

What can i say more to help people see stage green?

Pick the low hanging fruit that are relatively open-minded, and meet them where they are first. Then, you can start sharing some truths with them that are at the peripheries of their worldview that they're not really aware of.

Paradigms are a bit like Jenga towers, some blocks are easier to remove than others. So, never go for a block that's locked in tight, look for the ones that are already loose.

Paradigms are build like castles in the sky. They have a core taken for granted, faith-based belief and then other beliefs are scaffolded upon that nothing of a belief until there is a cohesive paradigm structure. And people are usually only aware of the top few layers of that belief structure that they really identify with. 

For example, let's take the conservative structure... the more old-school blue style and not so much the new libertarian orange style version of conservatism. They generally value pragmatism, modesty, good work ethic, taking personal responsibility, falling in line with social norms, traditions, religiosity, black and white answers, keeping things simple, keeping up social appearances, rigid gender roles, patriotism, having wealth as a symbol of character, conformity, not having 'weird' behaviors, and being good in accordance with the commonly accepted cultural ideas of what good means.

Then, there are lots of other micro-beliefs, that get woven into this like "A person's value is based on their ability to work hard and take personal responsibility" which then leads to the shadow belief, "If a person is not doing well in life, it's because they haven't worked hard and taken personal responsibility AND that means that they're not good and not worthy of being and they deserve every bad thing that comes to them." 

It's best not to go for the micro-beliefs like that because that's where all the bacteria of worldviews grow, and there's a lot to be hidden the more granular you get with the beliefs. And the narrower the worldview, the more likelihood there is that it will be conducive to bacterial growth (like hatred, judgment, violence, discrimination, etc.) Not to mention, these are the beliefs that swim on the top of the surface, so they're hyper aware and identified with them.

But if you go more general and existential, like the idea of value itself and what value means, if they have some genuine breakthroughs and realizations, then you can take the scaffolding right out from under narrow-paradigmed belief systems and it will naturally give way to a more expanded perspective. It's like if you want to demolish a building, you don't start taking shingles off the roof even though those are one of the more obvious features of the building upon looking at it. What you do is target the underlying structure of the building and take that out first. So, it's all the heave beams that are hiding mostly inside of walls that can't even be seen when you're in the building. 

So, you're taking out the spine of the beliefs and not the extremities. 

So, a very conservative person would likely balk at you trying to push the idea that "Poor people don't deserve their hardships." They will likely roll their eyes and think you're being quite naive and too much of a bleeding heart with no pragmatic sense of how the world works. And they'll probably call you a snowflake libtard too. Haha!

But if you get more general and ask them questions about what they think about the idea of value and what it means. Then you can ask them probing questions, until they start becoming more aware of what they actually believe about value. And if they become more aware, they may eventually see that there are distortions and inconsistencies there. Most people are not really conscious of these existential type beliefs. So, just in talking about them it makes the person more aware of what they actually believe, which sets them up for potential breakthroughs in thinking.

So, work with the big beliefs that are so deep that they don't even know that they have them. And these are the giants that all the other more granular beliefs are sitting on top of. And once you take out the foundation and the backbone, everything else will fall with it... and viola they've jumped paradigms. 

 

 

 

 

[Nivsch]

@Emerald could you give me an example of a question i can ask conservative person which is cutting the less visible walls of his belief?

Your wrote to ask him about the value itself but it still difficult for me to understand what actually can i ask him.

[Emerald]

6 hours ago, Nivsch said:

@Emerald could you give me an example of a question i can ask conservative person which is cutting the less visible walls of his belief?

Your wrote to ask him about the value itself but it still difficult for me to understand what actually can i ask him.

You could ask them, what is it mean when something has value?

What is something that doesn't have value?

What does deserving mean?

What is the litmus test for deserving something?

What is punishment?

What makes something an appropriate punishment?

What does punishment do for people?

So, things like this that aren't directly related to their hot-button issues, but are the basis for them coming to the conclusions they've come to in a round about way. And these are good conversation starters in that way, if you find someone who's willing to question things with you. 

That's why I said to pick the low hanging fruit as much as possible, as there can be open minded people who are caught down in narrower and less accurate viewpoints, simply because they haven't thought things through to the point where they could transcend their worldview. So, you're really just giving them as many resources to do that as possible.

If a person is very stubborn and ideological, however, you would have to be a lot trickier and methodical to find an opening in their fortress walls. So, you'd have to keep a keen eye out for the Achilles heals of their worldview, where they are not protecting that spot.

 

[Truth Addict]

@Nivsch

Having enemies or competitors, whether they are insiders or outsiders.

[Nivsch]

@Emerald Thanks a lot! Do you have examples of chalenging the peripherals of orange (in that same way)?

Edited April 18, 2019 by Nivsch

[Nivsch]

@Truth Addict ?