A Very Mature Interview w/Adyashanti

[kieranperez]

In this interview they touch on:

• Human Development is just as important as Spiritual Development
• Zen Devilry among spiritual masters
• Integral understanding towards spirituality and why psychology and spirituality are both separate branches of development but also intersect (I disagree with how he thinks it should be addressed but nonetheless important) & people who deal with trauma on the spiritual path
• Embodiment is where the bulk of the work is, not just going after “experience” 
• The realities of spiritual giftedness + where a lot of the issues are with people being blocked to “spiritual abilities”

I think this is a very sobering interview between Gabor Mate and Adyashanti, particularly for a lot of people on the forum who just play the nondual-keyboard warriors.

I really appreciate Adyashanti being very down to earth in this interview as I think it’s a discussion that needs to be had more with spiritual teachers who are pretty well known, if not very well known on social media. 

The main point I felt a little bugged by is his idea that someone whose truly suffering from psychological issues and trauma  that is heavy into a spiritual path needs to simply redirected towards a psychotherapist and so on as “that’s not their domain of expertise.” Though I understand and empathize with where they’re coming from, I think its a point that just isn’t valid enough to just let that be the solution. A lot of people get into because they’re suffering so much and because they can see that this does deal with the root issues through certain “supplementary practices” like being honest, surrendering to love, etc. Spiritual teachers are still in the business of helping people become free of suffering. So to say “that’s not my expertise” I think is a bit of a cop out. Spirituality is going to have to go integral and utilize sorts of practices that help heal psychological issues... to a point! I’m not suggesting spiritual teachers are in the business of making people not jump off a bridge or helping people with schizophrenia and that if you’re in that kinda of state/condition, just go to Sadhguru and have him give you shaktipat by Mt. Kailash. I am saying though that this is something that’s going to need to be addressed at one point or another as far as I’m concerned. Ken Wilber, spiritual programs like Integral Zen acknowledges (and many others that just don’t get much credit or aren’t that well known), etc. 

[kieranperez]

@Serotoninluv overall we do agree. 

I think it’s a really big thing that’s missing. Some of these teachers who’ve worked on themselves deeply and now radiate unconditional indiscriminate love and also self-mastery and freedom from suffering, these people do radiate something “God-like”. Regardless of your degree of suffering or not really suffering that much at all in life, this person can be magnetic. So when someone whose suffering from crippling suffering and is really trying to maybe love themselves and can’t, people who are trying to sit through meditation without incurring some past trauma or get over their low self-worth, etc. those kinda of people who have that “god-like” (not to say all spiritual teachers are st that point but it makes for a good example) level of self-mastery can become icons to those people and almost invevitably be a huge influence to them. To shoo them away because that ain’t there domain I think really is a disservice to those other people. 

Now, again, don’t take this as being black and white. I’m not in some fantasy where I expect spiritual teachers to now play the role of like Tony Robbins or whoever. Obviously, there are people who are so stuck in the mind and suffering that, no matter what you do or say to them, they will not comply, they might just play more victim ego games, etc. 

Nonetheless, I don’t think that’s an excuse. I’ve gone to many teachers and on the other end many of previous therapists (and also psychiatrists, past counselors, etc.) here where I live in San Francisco and man... I cannot tell you demoralizing and how inhuman it can feel when you’re constantly turned away because “that’s not my field,” and they can’t talk about it whether it be for legal reasons or whatever. This whole thing legally and in our medical system is really fucked up. Everything is so segregated and split off people just hyper specialize in one narrow niche fucking thing and they’re useless in everything other than that. If I see a psychologist and they only do psychoanalysis, they’re useless when it comes to building self-esteem, etc. Everytbing is so hyper specialized people need to have to like 20 different fucking people. 

47 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Yet mainstream psychedelics are way behind medication, therapy and spirituality.

Can you elaborate more on what you mean by this and what you’re referring to?

48 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Yet, I’m continuously amazed how far down a person can go into suffering, yet still try to protect that sense of self - even if it means more suffering

I want to be clear first - I know your intentions are well and then some and can tell you’re speaking from a place of compassion. 

What you have to understand is (and I’m going to use myself as the example as I feel I’m a good case for it) people are really deeply suffering as a result of their psychological issues, past traumas can lead to crippling low self-esteem. I’m defining self-esteem as Nathaniel Branden does which includes 2 fundamental components: self-efficacy & self-respect. 

For me, spiritual work is so hard because to do it deeply or even “luke warm” you have to apply daily consistency to your practice. I personally have horrendous self-esteem. I have really low integrity. Some small little hiccup go off in my day (like today - I couldn’t find my house key because I lost my glasses and I’m out of contacts because I’ve been suffering from memory issues since getting off 17 years worth of Adderall and now my short-term memory has been getting worse and worse) that would seem like nothing to the outside person and then I berate myself, become so emotionally unstable because it’s like a justification that symbolizes my own uselessness how I’m going to go nowhere and that I’m a loser and next thing I know 8 later I have suicide ideations. Now, fortunately, thanks to actualized.org I have a frame of reference of what’s actually going on which helps me just get through those really harsh moments where I feel dead inside and have no hope in my life. Not to mention trying to mindful of that frame of reference when my low self-esteem leads to such low levels of insecurity in my own behavior that reflect such selfishnesses even when you know that selfishness is the very that’s hurting me. 

However, most people don’t even have that frame of reference. Most people don’t have a clue what’s going on. Then they go see a spiritual teacher and make spiritual friends who continually spout their misinterpretations of non-attachment and so forth. 

Understand that when you get low enough it’s so incredibly hard to turn around... even if you understand the mechanism. 

[FoxFoxFox]

I'm not sure how he can be enlightened and still say many of the stuff that he says in that video.

[Forestluv]

@kieranperez 

“Can you elaborate more on what you mean by this and what you’re referring to?”

 I was referring to the development stages of medication, therapy and spirituality. Many wealthier countries such as the U.S. have invested enormous amounts of money, time and effort into the development of prescription drugs. It’s got conflict of interests with profit motives, yet a lot of resources have been put into research and design of medication. Therapy also has a long history and has the support of academic institutions and health insurance companies. The health-care industry is fueled by medication. . . Psychedelic research is lagging way behind - mainly due to its schedule 1 status, social sigma and restrictions on research. As a researcher, I can easily order enough Mercury to wipe out everyone in the town I live in. I could have it by next Thursday. Yet I can’t order a tiny amount if LSD to make a single fruit fly trip. I would have to secure a large grant and go through a couple years worth of approval applications and then comply with draconian oversight. Then a single hits worth of acid would cost hundreds of dollars. There is a lot of resistance against psychedelic research. The first cellular biology article just came out last summer. 

Regarding my comments on how far a person can fall and still protect the ego, I didn’t phrase it very well and I appreciate your thoughts. There are a lot of mind’s that have undergone trauma, injuries, have biochemical imbalances and abnormally wired circuitry. That’s a heavy burden to carry and I don’t have direct experience with that. I’ve had fleeting episodes, yet not at the level I’ve seen in others. Sometimes I rely too heavily on my own direct experience and unintentionally neglect to include the direct experience of certain groups. My comments didn’t properly include a portion of the population and I appreciate you bringing attention to that and offering your own direct experience ?