Can you be happy without becoming enlightened ?

[tecladocasio]

@noselfnofun You can only be happy without becoming enlightened . 

[noselfnofun]

3 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

Yea, I didn't mean to jump in and be all "spiritually correct". 

I now better understand the sentiment of your question. I would say that there is a certain type of happiness a person can experience. You asked whether a person could experience "true happiness" along the path. Are you asking about a deeper true happiness than standard personal happiness most people think of. Like the happiness of getting a good job, having free time to watch movies, having a good meal etc.? I would say there is a deeper true happiness than this. Ime, I had "glimpses" of this deeper happiness - a type of peace, stillness, bliss. Yet only glimpses. Ime, "transcending" the self is necessary because it is a more expansive happiness. If I am contracted within the personality construct, happiness will be limited to within that construct. Yet when consciousness expands beyond the personality, a deeper more expansive happiness arises. Perhaps I am just using the term "transcending the personality" and you might be calling it "enlightenment". I don't mean to be a stickler on terms. The sentiment is more important. . . I would say that some type of personal transcendence is correlated with the arising of that deeper / expansive happiness. At least ime. It seems to be the case from what I read about others as well.

Yeah no worries man, yes a deeper true happiness, one where they feel more connected to life and have a relative amount of strength to deal with the challenges life can throw at us. Yes I agree self transcendence is needed for that deeper connection with life if its consciously done or not. I feel some people are probably closer to that then others naturally, could be there Karma at play.  It seems human connection is the way most people reach this state of self transcendence, but because of our inability to find it easy without other people it causes great conflict and pain. 

Also the other question I eluding to was is there a middle ground with this path in terms of progress with peace, fulfilment and happiness.  say someone who has a very dedicated practice to mindfulness and devotion to the truth, they may never fully realise the self but because of there efforts there life is way better off then if they didn't start the journey? 

 

[noselfnofun]

2 hours ago, Mu_ said:

There are just people who are happier then others. Don’t go down the victim hole or as fast as others. And there are people in the money making game who get enjoyment out of it.  Enlightenment is about finding out who and what we are. Not a path to happiness. It’s generalky a side effect though.  It’s why I suggest a lot of elements that improve happiness in general since who wants to suffer more then necessary.  

cool, I may see it differently slightly in a sense that I feel the ego/bodyminds objective is to free itself or another way to look at it, find true peace/happiness. I guess I meant to say a very deep sense of peace and well being compared to just enjoyment. could thos people who chase money really have that from such efforts, I guess its possible. I feel self realization is what the body mind is truly seeking, to loose itself haha or maybe I'm biased and thats why I asked this question because I sometimes thing god look at everyone suffering without them even knowing it and if only they knew about this but that kind of mindset needs to be investigated as maybe I'm wrong. 

[noselfnofun]

2 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

@noselfnofun

I'm not enlightened and almost 99% happy.

I suffered a lot in the past (unimaginable suffering for most people here, and still struggling with its consequences), now anything and everything feels perfect, I'm rolling with life like crazy! It's awesome!

It's almost impossible to get me angry, frustrated, sad, etc... Although I'm not perfect, but I have control over most of my emotions, control by surrendering.

Wherever I am, there is peace.

So, yes it's possible. Lighten up.

thats awesome man I hope it stays that way:) 

[Nahm]

@noselfnofun

10 hours ago, noselfnofun said:

Was thinking last night could someone live a truly happy life without attaining enlightenment? is there a middle ground on this path? or is it, you will always suffer if you never get to the truth. 

The one who lives a truly happy life, is indeed enlightened. The ‘middle ground’, as you have used the term, in and of itself is used to describe a less than truly happy life. (Middle level happiness, if you will)

The truth is that there is no suffering. When you say “never get to the truth’, the actuality of that is more ‘if I continue deluding myself’. The truth is not something you get to, it is what you are, which you are covering up, with falsities. 

[Forestluv]

12 minutes ago, noselfnofun said:

 Also the other question I eluding to was is there a middle ground with this path in terms of progress with peace, fulfilment and happiness.  say someone who has a very dedicated practice to mindfulness and devotion to the truth, they may never fully realise the self but because of there efforts there life is way better off then if they didn't start the journey? 

That's a good question and I'm not sure what a good answer would be. . . I've seen a lot of people get really immersed in a spiritual path and seem to go overboard with it. They seem to get isolated and immersed in spirituality and end up getting contracted. Yet they generally don't have these dramatic lives with stuff like gambling, abuse etc. I've also seen people that seem dedicated to mindfulness and truth, yet engage with a lot of human endeavors and are still within the personality - with some periods of being in an "observer + object" phase. I would put myself in this category. I've gotten into a lot of unhealthy self-centered situations, yet I'd say I've experienced more peace, fulfilment and happiness than I would have otherwise, even though I didn't fully realize the self. I still don't think I have. I would estimate about 70%, if it can be put into that. . . I would also say that it helped give "glimpses" into profound direct experiences and insights. They passed, yet I don't think I would have had them as much without the spiritual practices. 

[Gabriel Antonio]

Of course so

[Dumb Enlightened]

12 hours ago, noselfnofun said:

Was thinking last night could someone live a truly happy life without attaining enlightenment? is there a middle ground on this path? or is it, you will always suffer if you never get to the truth. 

What is a happy life ? Define it

 

[SOUL]

19 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

There is also another "view" that I was pointing to that comes "prior" to the statement above. It is not imagery or conceptual. I think the only way to "see" it is to have the direct experience. It is really hard to point to and I am unable to transmit it to you. I would if I could, yet I clearly can't here. I'm doing the best I can, yet I can't transmit it to you here. . . Yet, that happens to me a lot. I've only met a few people in my life with the direct experience. That is why I often avoid pointing to it - it generally is misinterpreted and causes confusion as has happened here.

 

19 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

I see a lot of value in integrating perspectives and holism. I spend a lot of time in this space and see a lot of value here. Yet in it's truest sense, what I was pointing to is not about integrating perspectives or holism. It's not about using short descriptions or long descriptions. "Here", one word is too many and a million words are not enough. I again go back to the clear translucent crystal. It is not the actual crystal itself. It is not the image of the crystal. It is not conceptually about a crystal and ideas about everything and nothing. It comes prior to that. That which comes prior is doing it's best to express itself. But it can only use words and images to do so here. Yet it is not the words or images. As soon as the mind thinks in words and concepts, it is too late. All distinctions would need to dissolve for the direct experience to arise. To me, the crystal makes sense because of the direct experience of "prior". It's not even "me" that has had the direct experience because it's "prior" to that. 

To see it through a clear crystal, one would need to let go of the image of a clear crystal and that "I" am perceiving it through a clear crystal. It's more like from the clarity of the clear crystal everything arises from nothing. To me, "it" trying to express itself makes sense. Not because my mind can make sense of it, but because the direct experience that comes prior to imagery knows itself.

The original topic is about a 'happy life' and 'enlightenment' which this discussion serves as a clear example why so few people have a 'happy life' from this type of 'enlightenment' discourse. It is spoken of as something that is so esoteric and abstract when the reality of it isn't so complicated.

A happy life can be correlated to the amount of self suffering one experiences. Having all of these esoteric and abstract complexities to contend with can be a source of self suffering because it distracts from the obvious simple nature of being since the mind is consumed with imagining so distracts awareness from being present.

What you call the 'prior' state is really simultaneously happening in consciousness and we can 'view' the present moment with this clarity. Our awareness is the observer of consciousness that is without the conceptualization of the mind unless we believe the mind's conjuring so identify with and attach to it.

Awareness of being present without trying to control the mind or understand complex concepts is that 'prior' you speak of, it's accessible in the present moment. Not reflexively believing everything the mind produces is a empowering way to bring about the cessation of self suffering.

It is quite simple to explain the simple way. It may not be quite that easy to create an inner experience that embodies this type of being present because we are constantly lured into the conceptual world through the mind's activities. So that 'prior' state is a 'present' state that we can view from at any moment even while the mind weaves it's story.

Not being attached to the story leads to that cessation of self suffering which isn't the same thing as the cessation of the mind's activity in creating the story. Believing we have to cease the mind and it's activity to be 'happy' may be one of the most common inducers of self suffering in seekers.

The simplicity of not reflexively attaching and identifying with what happens in the mind is enough to empower the cessation of self suffering in us which correlates to a 'happy life'. This can be a genuine experience for us whether we understand any of the complex concepts or not and whether we reach what many consider 'enlightened' or not.

 

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, SOUL said:

Awareness of being present without trying to control the mind or understand complex concepts is that 'prior' you speak of, it's accessible in the present moment. 

I agree with your last post and see a lot of value in it. Yet on this point, that is not what I am speaking of. Yes, it can be seen as a concept and yes it is a concept. Yet it is also a non-concept in the present moment. The pure awareness without concepts is certainly “prior” to concepts, yet what I am pointing to is not quite that. One might think “We’ll that’s just another concept” - and yes it is. Yet if a mind becomes fixated on that conceptual component it will not get the direct experience of the non-conceptual component. The mind may think once again “we’ll thats just another concept” and will not be able to receive the direct experience. 

The only way I know here to transmit is through words/concepts. So if one dismisses it all as concepts there is no vehicle to transmit. That is why I’m saying the direct experience in the present is so important. In real life, it may be possible to transmit non-verbally and non-conceptually. Yet I haven't developed those skills well and I certainly wouldn’t be able to do it non-conceptually on a textual forum like this. That’s why I avoid pointing to this on the forum. It’s clear that my efforts here will fail. It can lead to confusion and be distracting.

In real life, I think the chances are higher to stimulate the direct experience in another, or at least plant a seed. Person to person includes a much wider range of communication modes. Yet the only people I’ve met with understanding in this “facet” are those with prior direct experience, which is extremely rare. 

[Truth Addict]

@noselfnofun Thanks.

It really is awesome, even fear feels ecstatic! I'm so blessed to be alive.

Sent from my ego-mind.

[SOUL]

1 hour ago, Serotoninluv said:

I agree with your last post and see a lot of value in it. Yet on this point, that is not what I am speaking of. Yes, it can be seen as a concept and yes it is a concept. Yet it is also a non-concept in the present moment. The pure awareness without concepts is certainly “prior” to concepts, yet what I am pointing to is not quite that.

So what does this state that cannot be spoken about help with someone having a happy life? Are you suggesting that only if someone has direct experience of this state that they can have a happy life?

[Forestluv]

2 hours ago, SOUL said:

So what does this state that cannot be spoken about help with someone having a happy life? Are you suggesting that only if someone has direct experience of this state that they can have a happy life?

I acknowledged earlier that my original message was a bit awkward and I re-phrased my message to the OP, taking this into consideration. Thank you again for your input, it was helpful.

Here, I was trying to bring clarity to a point the two of us were discussing, yet I was unable to do so. 

Or, perhaps it is just a concept my mind is attached to and I’m delusional. I can see that as well.

[noselfnofun]

21 hours ago, Dumb Enlightened said:

What is a happy life ? Define it

 

Happiness is just the absence of any kind of mental suffering 

[David Hammond]

@noselfnofun Yes you can be definitely happy as an ego, but it's a task to keep up. Enlightenment is easy, you don't have to do anything anymore or worry anymore about anything, because you basically don't care anymore about happiness or unhappiness. Enlightenment is about freedom and wisdom rather than identity and seeking happiness in duality. 

[Dumb Enlightened]

1 hour ago, noselfnofun said:

Happiness is just the absence of any kind of mental suffering 

What prevents you from getting it then ?

[OmniYoga]

I don't know is there such a thing as enligthment
but in life I was the most happy when things were going the way I wanted
or
I was on path that seemed to me relevant and meaningul (sense of higher purpose and that you going in right direction, and you can grow on that path),  when you challenge yourself and overcome your own limitations
when you've done something that you thouthg was impossible,
but that is temporary and fragile
cuz life has ups and downs

[OmniYoga]

4 hours ago, noselfnofun said:

Happiness is just the absence of any kind of mental suffering 

@Dumb Enlightened how is that different from ignorance, disengagement or apathy? or being numb and dull?

have you read american psycho maybe? you can say he was free of mental suffering yet you can't call that happiness either

[Dumb Enlightened]

1 hour ago, OmniYoga said:

I don't know is there such a thing as enligthment
but in life I was the most happy when things were going the way I wanted
or
I was on path that seemed to me relevant and meaningul (sense of higher purpose and that you going in right direction, and you can grow on that path),  when you challenge yourself and overcome your own limitations
when you've done something that you thouthg was impossible,
but that is temporary and fragile
cuz life has ups and downs

That's cause the idea of happiness from the mind is an illusion

[Dumb Enlightened]

55 minutes ago, OmniYoga said:

@Dumb Enlightened how is that different from ignorance, disengagement or apathy? or being numb and dull?

have you read american psycho maybe? you can say he was free of mental suffering yet you can't call that happiness either

I haven't read the book so I dunno about this guy, but people who say that they don't care about anything, are apathetic, you can be those people are the most deluded, their mind has them completely over control, they suffer deeply,