(Advice For Leo) Epigenetics and Motivation for Practice

[ardacigin]

On 4/10/2019 at 0:03 PM, noselfnofun said:

This is what I have been doing, recently I came of a retreat and I was doing 5 plus hours of SDS everyday, life became like a mild acid trip like u say. What i noticed was when I really started to up the pratice I expirenced a massive ego backlash, have you found this? I've recently just come out of it and plan to continue with the intense meditation but it's almost like u have to be prepared mentally and also have your life in check. Also do you have a teacher you can go to who is stream entry ? That's always helpful  

 

 

 

 

 

 

I do experience ego backlash as well but it is very sparingly. Sometimes I lower the intensity but I always practice everyday.  I never skip any day. Mindfulness tends to effortlessly happen for me at least for a few minutes even if I decide to NOT focus on being mindful. 

So skipping a day entirely with 0 minutes of mindfulness is not physiologically possible since I practice intensely everyday.   Overall, ego backlash doesn't happen that often for me.

My life is relatively in check and your immediate problems like paying the bills, taking care of the kids and career prospects can all effect your practice. But unless things are TOO hectic and unbearable, we should continue to practice as diligently and intensely we can. 

The purpose is to re-train the nervous system. This can only happen with habitual and intense practice. Don't spend too much time in ego backlash. Motivate yourself with watching and listening talks from Leo, Culadasa, Shinzen Young, Peter Ralston, Eckhart Tolle etc.

Do whatever it takes to prevent sinking into unconsciousness in summary. Until it no longer happens. Until you are always in a state of mindfulness even if it is light. After that, the mind will auto-correct and do what is necessary without a 'self' motivating or suffering.

And I think these are all the teachers you need. Read their books. Review their materials in detail. And be mindful of the potential traps in meditation like dark night of the soul and certain psychological effects in advanced stages.

If you do your homework,  not being able to touch base with a stream enterer is NOT  the end of the world. Although having a mentor who is more skilled than you is always the ideal. But don't feel lacking if you can't find people like that. 

Because let's get real. Stream enterers are rare. And even if you find one, they may or may not be interested in mentoring you. Even if they do, you may or may not get value from their techniques.

So rather than waiting for the perfect personal guru, it is better to try the working techniques from masters on the internet who already teaches you enough theory, start the practice diligently and make corrections as necessary.

Keep feedback loops open and listen to other meditator's advice. And then be willing to take action and change your negative habits. 

For instance, I had this really bad habit of meditating in dullness (losing brightness of the breath) as I tried to develop stable attention and Culadasa really stresses the importance of NOT doing that so I've corrected the sinking into drowsiness problem and progressed further into stage 7 in his model of samadhi stages. 

Things like that seem small but really important for fast growth. 

These are my suggestions. Hope they help

 

 

[noselfnofun]

1 hour ago, ardacigin said:

I do experience ego backlash as well but it is very sparingly. Sometimes I lower the intensity but I always practice everyday.  I never skip any day. Mindfulness tends to effortlessly happen for me at least for a few minutes even if I decide to NOT focus on being mindful. 

So skipping a day entirely with 0 minutes of mindfulness is not physiologically possible since I practice intensely everyday.   Overall, ego backlash doesn't happen that often for me.

My life is relatively in check and your immediate problems like paying the bills, taking care of the kids and career prospects can all effect your practice. But unless things are TOO hectic and unbearable, we should continue to practice as diligently and intensely we can. 

The purpose is to re-train the nervous system. This can only happen with habitual and intense practice. Don't spend too much time in ego backlash. Motivate yourself with watching and listening talks from Leo, Culadasa, Shinzen Young, Peter Ralston, Eckhart Tolle etc.

Do whatever it takes to prevent sinking into unconsciousness in summary. Until it no longer happens. Until you are always in a state of mindfulness even if it is light. After that, the mind will auto-correct and do what is necessary without a 'self' motivating or suffering.

And I think these are all the teachers you need. Read their books. Review their materials in detail. And be mindful of the potential traps in meditation like dark night of the soul and certain psychological effects in advanced stages.

If you do your homework,  not being able to touch base with a stream enterer is NOT  the end of the world. Although having a mentor who is more skilled than you is always the ideal. But don't feel lacking if you can't find people like that. 

Because let's get real. Stream enterers are rare. And even if you find one, they may or may not be interested in mentoring you. Even if they do, you may or may not get value from their techniques.

So rather than waiting for the perfect personal guru, it is better to try the working techniques from masters on the internet who already teaches you enough theory, start the practice diligently and make corrections as necessary.

Keep feedback loops open and listen to other meditator's advice. And then be willing to take action and change your negative habits. 

For instance, I had this really bad habit of meditating in dullness (losing brightness of the breath) as I tried to develop stable attention and Culadasa really stresses the importance of NOT doing that so I've corrected the sinking into drowsiness problem and progressed further into stage 7 in his model of samadhi stages. 

Things like that seem small but really important for fast growth. 

These are my suggestions. Hope they help

 

 

Amazing post, thank you. I can for sure see this to be the case with proper diligence and practice. You have motivated me.. I live near a good monetary where I will be staying for a year or two, ajhan sucittco lives there and yeah he is a bit hesitant to give out info but some of the other monks do. Also I'm luck as Rupert spira dose lots of events 2 mins walk from my house. I need to check out the book the mind illuminated. 

Do you think stream entry is possible for us in a lifetime with enough practice ?

[noselfnofun]

But seriously very motivating and very clear and practical points, I think in terms of Leo. I actually think he is a clever guy and he will be or is fine with the way he is going about his practice I think once you have a passion for truth and have an open mind like he dose you can't fail. Plus we don't know him personally to see what he really thinks, just get a sense form his videos. Its more his listeners that could fall into these traps

[Jordan94]

@noselfnofun Cool that you can relate

For what you said about the expectations, I can see how that can be true, as obviously after a retreat we will be on a peak, and from there it's normal and sure that we will go down at least some in the next weeks or so

But I don't think it's a big thing, for me if I look back and make a summary of my practice and results/effects of those 2 years, the 2 hours daily are just not worth the benefits I get out of retreat momentum (so the majority of the time)

 

 

@ardacigin Great post again thanks

Yea I totally agree with the pillar skills thing, it matches pretty well my experience

14 hours ago, ardacigin said:

You need to solidify in skills like equanimity, stable attention and sensory clarity

I actually already thought and measured my progress in meditation in those exact 3 points, and personally it's clear for me that i'm wayyy more advanced in equanimity and sensory clarity than stable attention/focus, which is really my weak point

(Outside of retreat momentum) Sensory clarity I can feel a sensation in nearly any part of my body if I put my attention there, equanimity I can do okay-good-ish especially if I put intention in trying to just observe equanimously sensations (at least i'm more advanced than my focus/attention), and attention as I said it's just my weak point so far, I would be 20-30% of the time of a 1 hour sit actually half-focused on the technique, the rest is monkey mind

So i've been really puting emphasis so far on trying to improve my focus, since it's my weak point, but still with strugles and my focus is still weak after 3 years

But now I feel like one other way to go (at least for some time, eventually obviously I'll have to improve my focus if I want to go further, but my goal now is really more to have some nice benefits from the practice, rather than aiming for enlightenment or whatever) would be to engage in a practice where it's less relying on focus

And obviously in SDS, after the 45minute mark when the intense pain starts to kick in, being focused on the sensations is not really a big problem 

 

So yea i'm thinking more and more that i'm gonna go more deep in SDS and more equanimity-based practices

What's your setup for SDS at home btw ? cushion on the floor ? bed/sofa ? no cushion ? other setup like a zafu or whatever ?

 

I will read  the book yea it seems really interesting, I already checked what it looked like when @Enlightenment mentionned it, thanks you two for the share

Edited April 13, 2019 by Jordan94

[ardacigin]

On 4/13/2019 at 10:15 AM, Jordan94 said:

@noselfnofun Cool that you can relate

For what you said about the expectations, I can see how that can be true, as obviously after a retreat we will be on a peak, and from there it's normal and sure that we will go down at least some in the next weeks or so

But I don't think it's a big thing, for me if I look back and make a summary of my practice and results/effects of those 2 years, the 2 hours daily are just not worth the benefits I get out of retreat momentum (so the majority of the time)

 

 

@ardacigin Great post again thanks

Yea I totally agree with the pillar skills thing, it matches pretty well my experience

I actually already thought and measured my progress in meditation in those exact 3 points, and personally it's clear for me that i'm wayyy more advanced in equanimity and sensory clarity than stable attention/focus, which is really my weak point

(Outside of retreat momentum) Sensory clarity I can feel a sensation in nearly any part of my body if I put my attention there, equanimity I can do okay-good-ish especially if I put intention in trying to just observe equanimously sensations (at least i'm more advanced than my focus/attention), and attention as I said it's just my weak point so far, I would be 20-30% of the time of a 1 hour sit actually half-focused on the technique, the rest is monkey mind

So i've been really puting emphasis so far on trying to improve my focus, since it's my weak point, but still with strugles and my focus is still weak after 3 years

But now I feel like one other way to go (at least for some time, eventually obviously I'll have to improve my focus if I want to go further, but my goal now is really more to have some nice benefits from the practice, rather than aiming for enlightenment or whatever) would be to engage in a practice where it's less relying on focus

And obviously in SDS, after the 45minute mark when the intense pain starts to kick in, being focused on the sensations is not really a big problem 

 

So yea i'm thinking more and more that i'm gonna go more deep in SDS and more equanimity-based practices

What's your setup for SDS at home btw ? cushion on the floor ? bed/sofa ? no cushion ? other setup like a zafu or whatever ?

 

I will read  the book yea it seems really interesting, I already checked what it looked like when @Enlightenment mentionned it, thanks you two for the share

I totally relate to where you currently are in your practice. Stable attention is weak and one spends around 60% of time in a 1 hour sit in monkey mind. Equanimity is somewhere beginner-intermediate. And sensory clarity is not really strong as well. Does this sound like your experience?

If so, I have 2 advice for you

1- Read Culadasa's book. The mind illuminated. And do EVERYTHING he says and solidify your skills in stage 6-7 in his training stages. Then get that stable attention to daily life while walking and listenning.

2- Once you are there, start doing 90-120 mins SDS sits in cross legged posture on a daily basis. (or once in 2 days)

In about 30-60 days, you'll grow like you have never grown in your spiritual career. That is what happened to me in my experience. It was VERY emotionally taxing but it changed my moment by moment subjective experience of life on a semi-permanent level. RADICALLY.

Let me know your progress

 

[ardacigin]

On 4/9/2019 at 3:08 PM, Enlightenment said:

Leo would benefit a lot from just following "The Mind Illuminated" instructions on how to develop stable attention and eventually equanimity. Also, I think he should give mantra meditation a try. His perception of what persistent state of enlightenment is flawed by his 5-MeO use. 5-MeO is more like a God Insight producing substance, but it's really different from what can be maintained in daily life.

I think that book is the most underrated meditation book I've ever seen.

It has a forum in reddit and some meditators do know about it but compared to how fucking amazing the book is, all meditators must be going crazy about it and re-reading it multiple times over a few years.

I see people re-reading Eckhart Tolle's books all the time, but never heard of Culada's book at all. Hell, even I saw it on an ad while I was browsing on Amazon. Purely by chance.

I thought the cover looked cool, had pretty nice reviews and then I bought it. Once I started reading it, I got seriously mind fucked.

Culadasa really has blown me away with this. Not even Daniel Ingram's and Shinzen Young's books are this high quality. I've gotten mind-blowing levels of growth thanks to his instructions.

And the reason is that I'd have never spent so much time in frustration for developing stable and bright attention to the breath if it weren't for his insistence on the importance of doing so to advance the practice.

His map is so systematic and well designed is that it feels like a video game, leveling up and getting some tangible skill development in every stage.

I could never achieve that level of concentration and clarity on broad modalities like body awareness, self enquiry and see/hear/feel techniques. They all clicked for me AFTER I've mastered stable attention to the breath for long hours.

You start the insight practice AFTER mastering high states of concentration. And then you use the concentrated mind as a tool to investigate the sensory experience.

I think everyone should start taking this book seriously. It is life transforming. It is my 1# meditation book for beginners. BY FAR.

 

Edited April 20, 2019 by ardacigin

[ardacigin]

On 4/12/2019 at 9:52 PM, noselfnofun said:

Amazing post, thank you. I can for sure see this to be the case with proper diligence and practice. You have motivated me.. I live near a good monetary where I will be staying for a year or two, ajhan sucittco lives there and yeah he is a bit hesitant to give out info but some of the other monks do. Also I'm luck as Rupert spira dose lots of events 2 mins walk from my house. I need to check out the book the mind illuminated. 

Do you think stream entry is possible for us in a lifetime with enough practice ?

First of all, I'm not a stream enterer so I can't answer this question with full authority but from what I experience, stream entry is possible for almost everyone who is committed as long as they practice properly, develop the skills and crank up the intensity on a daily basis.

But I don't know what is possible for everyone after stream entry to 2nd path, 3rd path and arahatship.(I talk about the Theravada Map) Many enlightened people say these attainments can actually take longer of a time than a non-enlightened person going from depression to stream entry. 

They say this because certain people reach stream entry with 0 spiritual training. Eckhart Tolle cases might be rare but they do happen. Stream entry is possible for almost anyone.

On average, think of stream-entry as a 5-15 year long journey. The first permanent stage of awakening.

And think of becoming an arahat as an extra 50+ years after reaching stream entry. By which I mean full 'complete' enlightenment. (Whatever that is)

And all the degrees of enlightenment between somewhere within those years.

So definitely keep your motivations high for stream entry. Keep practicing and develop your skills systematically

Edited April 20, 2019 by ardacigin

[Shadowraix]

While certainly the body isn't static I think one of the key things is that we only have so much time to grow. Unless we perfect extending life. You can start from 0 and try to brute force things but if the reward isn't high enough to warrant the extra effort you'd probably be better off utilizing the talents your body gives you. 

[Buba]

So is Leo sad that he has not attained enlightenment?

[noselfnofun]

On 21/04/2019 at 0:17 AM, ardacigin said:

First of all, I'm not a stream enterer so I can't answer this question with full authority but from what I experience, stream entry is possible for almost everyone who is committed as long as they practice properly, develop the skills and crank up the intensity on a daily basis.

But I don't know what is possible for everyone after stream entry to 2nd path, 3rd path and arahatship.(I talk about the Theravada Map) Many enlightened people say these attainments can actually take longer of a time than a non-enlightened person going from depression to stream entry. 

They say this because certain people reach stream entry with 0 spiritual training. Eckhart Tolle cases might be rare but they do happen. Stream entry is possible for almost anyone.

On average, think of stream-entry as a 5-15 year long journey. The first permanent stage of awakening.

And think of becoming an arahat as an extra 50+ years after reaching stream entry. By which I mean full 'complete' enlightenment. (Whatever that is)

And all the degrees of enlightenment between somewhere within those years.

So definitely keep your motivations high for stream entry. Keep practicing and develop your skills systematically

Yeah I would have to agree with you from what I have seen from others and read. I'm very tempted to do a  2 year intensive retreat in a monastery to up my practice. I think certain people also develop quick/slower but that will all just depend I guess. Its actually not that hard to do 2 to 4 hours a day of practice if you get up early, even at one point I was doing 1.5 hour sit then would go to the gym before work, like you said its just the emotional toll it takes on you but in the end it is worth it thanks for the motivation. 

[Mu_]

@Jordan94   Thank you for everything you've shared, you obviously have a lot of experience with what your doing, where you've come from and whats changed and how its changed.  I even took a few notes to contemplate over in the future.  However one trap that I've fell into in the past, read about from past teachers and found in people I've worked with is having "to much" of a understanding of where your at, where your not and how far away you are to that.  Is this something you’ve encountered in your path?

Edited April 27, 2019 by Mu_

[Jordan94]

@ardacigin Thanks again, I actually started reading the book after my previous post, i'm at like 250pages now and I have to say that yea lol I agree with all that you said about the book it's just a pure fucking gem

I'm really surprised as well that it was the first time here that I heard about it and there's not a lot of people talking about it more, we should do a TMI mega topic where we could discuss progress on the path/advices/questions/whatever regarding the book/model that would be cool

As far as my experience with it so far, so yea as we could have expected I'm mostly on stage 3 not having mastered it yet (or rarelly, and sometimes on more unfocused session I drop to stage 2 obviously), so that was a big strategic mistake to go for purification/equanimity based meditation (goenka tradition vipassana) when my focus is not really good yet

I can already feel that the tools/practices/advices from the book are really helpful and wayyyyyy better than what I was doing before to improve on that, so yea working on that now, I guess it shouldn't take me that long to master stage 3 and progress above given I've already meditated some time overall but i'm mostly not there yet though

 

@Mu_ Wow thanks man I was not expecting that haha

As far as the trap, I'm not sure, I would not think so too much but maybe, I could see how knowing/believing in some lacks that i might have could reinforce them, although in the end (or begining I should say lol) there are still there in the first place, meaning that even if/when I would not think that my focus is not that good or what, it's still not magically going through the roof just because i removed the awareness/believing of it

However one trap that I see myself geting into and that is kinda related, is to go about it in a too much goal/result and tryhard oriented manner, and that can be counterproductive sometimes for sure, although I've tried briefly to go the opposite side sometimes and I would say resultswise (meaning progress/fruitfulness of the practice) i'm better doing too tryhard than too not tryhard I think

But for this point only recently with the book I think I understand now that the answer is actually that it's way better to actually do both at the same time in a balanced way

[Mu_]

10 hours ago, Jordan94 said:

@ardacigin Thanks again, I actually started reading the book after my previous post, i'm at like 250pages now and I have to say that yea lol I agree with all that you said about the book it's just a pure fucking gem

I'm really surprised as well that it was the first time here that I heard about it and there's not a lot of people talking about it more, we should do a TMI mega topic where we could discuss progress on the path/advices/questions/whatever regarding the book/model that would be cool

As far as my experience with it so far, so yea as we could have expected I'm mostly on stage 3 not having mastered it yet (or rarelly, and sometimes on more unfocused session I drop to stage 2 obviously), so that was a big strategic mistake to go for purification/equanimity based meditation (goenka tradition vipassana) when my focus is not really good yet

I can already feel that the tools/practices/advices from the book are really helpful and wayyyyyy better than what I was doing before to improve on that, so yea working on that now, I guess it shouldn't take me that long to master stage 3 and progress above given I've already meditated some time overall but i'm mostly not there yet though

 

@Mu_ Wow thanks man I was not expecting that haha

As far as the trap, I'm not sure, I would not think so too much but maybe, I could see how knowing/believing in some lacks that i might have could reinforce them, although in the end (or begining I should say lol) there are still there in the first place, meaning that even if/when I would not think that my focus is not that good or what, it's still not magically going through the roof just because i removed the awareness/believing of it

However one trap that I see myself geting into and that is kinda related, is to go about it in a too much goal/result and tryhard oriented manner, and that can be counterproductive sometimes for sure, although I've tried briefly to go the opposite side sometimes and I would say resultswise (meaning progress/fruitfulness of the practice) i'm better doing too tryhard than too not tryhard I think

But for this point only recently with the book I think I understand now that the answer is actually that it's way better to actually do both at the same time in a balanced way

Haha that was actually meant for Ardacigin. But good on you to reflect and get something out of it. 

I would agree though doing both is good. 

[Mu_]

@ardacigin

Thank you for everything you've shared, you obviously have a lot of experience with what your doing, where you've come from and whats changed and how its changed.  I even took a few notes to contemplate over in the future.  However one trap that I've fell into in the past, read about from past teachers and found in people I've worked with is having "to much" of a understanding of where your at, where your not and how far away you are to that.  Is this something you’ve encountered in your path?

I thought I replied this to you earlier but it was the wrong guy....hehehe...

[Jordan94]

 

1 hour ago, Mu_ said:

Haha that was actually meant for Ardacigin. But good on you to reflect and get something out of it. 

I would agree though doing both is good. 

 makes more sense yea

[ardacigin]

1 hour ago, Mu_ said:

@ardacigin

Thank you for everything you've shared, you obviously have a lot of experience with what your doing, where you've come from and whats changed and how its changed.  I even took a few notes to contemplate over in the future.  However one trap that I've fell into in the past, read about from past teachers and found in people I've worked with is having "to much" of a understanding of where your at, where your not and how far away you are to that.  Is this something you’ve encountered in your path?

I thought I replied this to you earlier but it was the wrong guy....hehehe...

Having a map has its disadvantages. It can create expectations, suffering and comparing mentality. But as every doctor points out, all drugs have pros and cons. And the reason why a doctor prescribes a drug to a patient is that they have confidence in Pros outweighing Cons by a significant margin. 

I think the cons of NOT talking about maps and goal oriented practices are WAY more than handling egoic issues like future orientation, expectations and drivenness. All of these will be cured as you go through the practice schedule anyways. So the disadvantages of using maps are automatically treated if you continue to practice diligently and strategically.

In Culadasa's model of training, stage 7 marks the beginning of effortless attention. You start to let go of the effort VERY strategically after teaching the mind to stay with the breath for 100+ hours through 'effort'. Now the conflicted sub-minds are unified around a single activity: investigating the breath with clarity, equanimity and concentration to get an insight into the true nature of reality/ sensory experience. 

Now all the 'surrendering' techniques like do nothing can be practiced with success and productivity. Because you have systematically developed the skills. 

Taking the no map route comes with confusion, lack of diligence, lack of concentration and purpose. Especially for a beginner meditator, this is the worst possible side effect one can experience from a spiritual technique.

Hope these helped you understand my opinions on the matter  Let me know your thoughts.

[Mu_]

19 hours ago, ardacigin said:

Having a map has its disadvantages. It can create expectations, suffering and comparing mentality. But as every doctor points out, all drugs have pros and cons. And the reason why a doctor prescribes a drug to a patient is that they have confidence in Pros outweighing Cons by a significant margin. 

I think the cons of NOT talking about maps and goal oriented practices are WAY more than handling egoic issues like future orientation, expectations and drivenness. All of these will be cured as you go through the practice schedule anyways. So the disadvantages of using maps are automatically treated if you continue to practice diligently and strategically.

In Culadasa's model of training, stage 7 marks the beginning of effortless attention. You start to let go of the effort VERY strategically after teaching the mind to stay with the breath for 100+ hours through 'effort'. Now the conflicted sub-minds are unified around a single activity: investigating the breath with clarity, equanimity and concentration to get an insight into the true nature of reality/ sensory experience. 

Now all the 'surrendering' techniques like do nothing can be practiced with success and productivity. Because you have systematically developed the skills. 

Taking the no map route comes with confusion, lack of diligence, lack of concentration and purpose. Especially for a beginner meditator, this is the worst possible side effect one can experience from a spiritual technique.

Hope these helped you understand my opinions on the matter  Let me know your thoughts.

You make a good case for the advantages of a map vrs no map, particular a map that burns itself at one point.  I believe a lot of what you said is pretty accurate.  What are your thoughts and understandings of why certain systems say for instance, focus on the heart, or focus on the breath or focus on the tip of the nose as the point of focus and if there is a benefit of one vs the other and what are those benefits in your experience?

[ardacigin]

One reason is the feedback loop. You know easily when you succeed in stable attention once you check in with the brightness of the breath in TMI's model. 

In wider focus ranges like the whole body scan without narrow attention ranges, one can feel dull and drowsy quickly.

The best way to counteract this issue is to include both narrow and wide focus ranges like TMI.

One might initially think that TMI only teaches attention to the breath on the exclusion of awareness, but this is a mistake. The primary focus is the breath at the nose and the secondary 'wider focus' is the body (or external sounds). 

This ensures optimal attentional and awareness growth. 

If you discard the awareness, you might hit blissful states (even psychedelic like states) with only concentration practices but attain  little to no permanent insights on the path to awakening.

On the other hand, if you discard the attentional development and just try to do dry insight practices like Self enquiry as Peter Ralston does, you might not penetrate into stream entry due to lack of equanimity, stability of attention, awareness and sensory clarity.

Hope these overviews answered your question.

 

 

Edited May 14, 2019 by ardacigin