empath

[Flatworld Crusades]

39 minutes ago, DrewNows said:

I wouldn’t say only narcissists manipulate however, maybe I’m wrong. To recognize one’s intent, for a narcissist, would be hard. Humility/honesty maybe. 

Empaths actually attract narcissists and vis-versa as opposites 

i identified myself as a narcissist many years ago in a stage of hating myself but wasn’t ever able to confirm it. I have learned to act with pure intent as my awareness has risen 

Yes you are right it is not only narcissists that manipulate, it was simply topical. 

[JohnnyBravo]

Empaths are just simply kind bold good hearted humans that were never praised for having boundaries as a child. They were punished for having boundaries.

Just learn to say NO to things again.

[Forestluv]

Regarding empath : narcissist dynamics. . . both can be manipulative and controlling - yet in very different ways. The energetics within the empath and narcissist are very different and there can be an attraction that leads to very unhealthy relationship dynamics. For example, really bad gaslighting.

I read a lot about the empath : narcissist dynamics and how an empath can establish boundaries and a shield to protect themselves. What I'm finding is that when the inter-personal manipulative dynamics are removed, the empath show goes on. It seems that new healthy empathic phenomena can arise that is pretty cool.

2 hours ago, JohnnyBravo said:

Empaths are just simply kind bold good hearted humans that were never praised for having boundaries as a child. They were punished for having boundaries.

Just learn to say NO to things again.

I think this is one of the keys - setting up personal boundaries. Yet ime there seems to be more going on. Once those boundaries were established, the empath show goes on. The empath is now liberated to develop their "abilities" and develop along the empathic line of development. A year ago, I thought this was "airy fairy" stuff from woo-woo Green people. Yet I'm starting to see that there is something to this - some type of higher mature level in this area. Similar to the intuitive line of development. 

 

[DrewNows]

@Serotoninluvthat's cool yeah i read empath will actually feel how others are while narcissists will only know what others are feeling without experiencing the emotions themselves.

1 hour ago, Serotoninluv said:

I read a lot about the empath : narcissist dynamics and how an empath can establish boundaries and a shield to protect themselves. What I'm finding is that when the inter-personal manipulative dynamics are removed, the empath show goes on. It seems that new healthy empathic phenomena can arise that is pretty cool.

To identify as human this seems to be the healthiest way to express oneself as an empath. The beauty of headlessness is there's no more identification or judgement and no more matches to those of specific energy intentions. the trans-personal is beyond any sort of labels, beliefs, or boundaries. I used to hate myself in my early 20s when i realized i was not able to change and i started to focus on my worst qualities. Had a spout of bipolar depression and just wished i could be "normal". I was driven into more kinds of destructive behavior, however it inevitably brought me closer to the true nature of being.   

[Forestluv]

28 minutes ago, DrewNows said:

@Serotoninluvthat's cool yeah i read empath will actually feel how others are while narcissists will only know what others are feeling without experiencing the emotions themselves.

This has not been my experience with narcissists. Ime narcissists are the opposite of empathy. They do not know what others are feeling. They can be extremely jaded and cynical. For example, there was a time with a narcissistic gf in which I suddenly had a realization that our relationship was about to end. It was an empathic clairvoyent sense that this time right now was the last time I see her or there might be one more time. I tried to reach out to her and asked for us to both work on this together. She was on her cell phone and kinda rolled her eyes. . . We also had a lot of magic together and intimate times and I "saw" it slipping away like sand in an hourglass. It's hard to explain - this wasn't just I feeling or thought. It was a sixth sense. All of the magic and beauty was slipping away and I reached out to connect with her. She wasn't there and the sand continued to slip through the hourglass. I was powerless. My body started to tremble and cry. This was overpowering my mind-body and it was 100% authentic. She looked up at me and went into "demon mode". She started mocking me . . . "Oh there you are with your crocodile tears. You poor baby. What a faker you are. Here you are pretending to cry like a baby and tonight you will be online trying to get laid". She said it in such a sinister way. She knew how to drive that knife deep into me. To an empath in this vulnerable position, I can't explain how manipulative and harmful this is. At times, it was so painful that I asked her to physically hit me rather than put me through this agony. I would have much preferred physical surface harm than deep soul harm. That knife goes deep.

I don't think a narcissist knows what the other is feeling. I don't think she actually knew what I was feeling. I think she was so cynical and self-centered she did not know what I was feeling and actually believed I was faking it to manipulate her. That is how it works in a narcissist's world. They use emotions to manipulate others. So when they see the emotions of others, they often assume the other person is faking it to manipulate them (just as they do). 

[DrewNows]

39 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

This has not been my experience with narcissists. Ime narcissists are the opposite of empathy. They do not know what others are feeling. They can be extremely jaded and cynical. For example, there was a time with a narcissistic gf in which I suddenly had a realization that our relationship was about to end. It was an empathic clairvoyent sense that this time right now was the last time I see her or there might be one more time. I tried to reach out to her and asked for us to both work on this together. She was on her cell phone and kinda rolled her eyes. . . We also had a lot of magic together and intimate times and I "saw" it slipping away like sand in an hourglass. It's hard to explain - this wasn't just I feeling or thought. It was a sixth sense. All of the magic and beauty was slipping away and I reached out to connect with her. She wasn't there and the sand continued to slip through the hourglass. I was powerless. My body started to tremble and cry. This was overpowering my mind-body and it was 100% authentic. She looked up at me and went into "demon mode". She started mocking me . . . "Oh there you are with your crocodile tears. You poor baby. What a faker you are. Here you are pretending to cry like a baby and tonight you will be online trying to get laid". She said it in such a sinister way. She knew how to drive that knife deep into me. To an empath in this vulnerable position, I can't explain how manipulative and harmful this is. At times, it was so painful that I asked her to physically hit me rather than put me through this agony. I would have much preferred physical surface harm than deep soul harm. That knife goes deep.

I don't think a narcissist knows what the other is feeling. I don't think she actually knew what I was feeling. I think she was so cynical and self-centered she did not know what I was feeling and actually believed I was faking it to manipulate her. That is how it works in a narcissist's world. They use emotions to manipulate others. So when they see the emotions of others, they often assume the other person is faking it to manipulate them (just as they do). 

Thank you for sharing this man <3 

Damn it sounds so painful. You are right but let me add some more. She really did know...but her focus was always on herself and it's the only way she knows how to be. She could only relate to you as if you were focused on yourself even though you were focused on her. She refused to believe you could put her first, she rationalized in her head that you had become the enemy, could not be trusted and therefore threatened her well being. Unfortunately you only ever mattered to her when it fit her agenda, but this means you still mattered, but only in the self-centered way as you said

The Narcissist will only look from the perspective of how others are in relation to him/her, there relationship with the world. It's sad, my father is a narcissist and both my brother and I have never really connected with him on an emotional level. He doesn't even know who we are but likes to assume the best. We have struggled with our relationship with him since we've grown old enough to see him for who he is but we don't blame him anymore, he's just not a part of either of our lives. 

edit: You probably know all of this ive added anyways also for her put you first is to threaten her sense of self, it might even make her a "bad" person

Edited April 19, 2019 by DrewNows

[Forestluv]

@DrewNows It was painful at the time, yet now it seems just like a bad movie I watched years ago. Yet there probably is some deep down residue I haven't fully cleaned out yet.

What you wrote about "mattering" rings true. I often went through a cycle of uncertainty whether I mattered to her and whether she loved me. It was a weird dynamic. As you say, I did matter to her - yet in a distorted way that was very different from how I am oriented. I can see the dynamic much better now, yet at the time I was swimming in uncertainty.

[Flatworld Crusades]

11 hours ago, JohnnyBravo said:

Empaths are just simply kind bold good hearted humans that were never praised for having boundaries as a child. They were punished for having boundaries.

Just learn to say NO to things again.

I'd have to completely disagree with you on this.  Empaths have the ability to "feel" energy from others which has nothing to do with being kind individuals. One of the biggest issues empaths have is that they don't have boundaries & therefore they suffer  from the effects of outside energy. 

[JohnnyBravo]

@Flatworld Crusades

You said empaths need to have boundaries.

I said in my answer empaths have to get boundaries.

We have both said the same thing and you also say you disagree with me. Wow.

Disagreeing with me for what motive of yours? Get a brain. If youre an empath by your definition then you can feel my rage from here over the internet at this stupidity of yours 

Honestly.

[DrewNows]

@JohnnyBravoyou come off as “stereotyping” empaths as being bold good hearted humans as silly as that sounds. It’s quite off the mark despite what experiences you may have had. It goes deeper than just saying no. To be conditioned to not put yourself first is extremely tough to deal with and knowing when to be selfish or vulnerable does not come easy. It’s basically like telling someone driving “why didn’t you see that car in your blind spot?” 

Edit: but I think it’s good you aren’t supporting the empath should hold a superiority mindset regarding their adaptability  

Edited April 21, 2019 by DrewNows

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, JohnnyBravo said:

@Flatworld Crusades

You said empaths need to have boundaries.

I said in my answer empaths have to get boundaries.

We have both said the same thing and you also say you disagree with me. Wow.

Disagreeing with me for what motive of yours? Get a brain. If youre an empath by your definition then you can feel my rage from here over the internet at this stupidity of yours 

Honestly.

You missed the point: the idea is that empaths are not simply kind people that  were punished for having boundaries. Rather, they can “feel” others energy - like a sixth sense. This aspect has nothing to do with being kind and setting up boundaries - and saying “NO” - so others won’t take advantage of you. Rather, the empathic boundaries are important so an empath doesn’t absorb and take responsibility for others’ negative energy. It is a very different dynamic. 

Learning how to say “No” so people don’t walk all over a person is a healthy skill. Yet that is not what is being pointed at here regarding empathic traits and boundaries. It’s as if we are discussing the aroma of a scent and you are talking about the volume of a radio. 

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, DrewNows said:

@JohnnyBravoIt goes deeper than just saying no. To be conditioned to not put yourself first is extremely tough to deal with and knowing when to be selfish or vulnerable does not come easy. 

It goes deeper than that as well, What you wrote assumes the empath can distinguish between their own self and another person. It assumes the empath can distinguish between their own energy and another’s energy. Knowing this distinction is really important for an empath to mature. The empath is actually experiencing another’s energy and it can easily be mistaken as being one’s own energy. An empath can experience another’s experience as if it were their own. It can get really intense and an empath’s attempt to relieve this energy dynamic is yo seek harmony - seeking to please other’s, seeking validation, seeking resolution, working through an issue together, avoidance, escape, withdrawal. . . There is a “six sense” aspect involving a type of sensitivity to a different “energy”, “frequency” or “feel”. I’m not quite sure how to describe it’s essence with words.

[DrewNows]

46 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

It goes deeper than that as well, What you wrote assumes the empath can distinguish between their own self and another person. It assumes the empath can distinguish between their own energy and another’s energy. Knowing this distinction is really important for an empath to mature. The empath is actually experiencing another’s energy and it can easily be mistaken as being one’s own energy. An empath can experience another’s experience as if it were their own. It can get really intense and an empath’s attempt to relieve this energy dynamic is yo seek harmony - seeking to please other’s, seeking validation, seeking resolution, working through an issue together, avoidance, escape, withdrawal. . . There is a “six sense” aspect involving a type of sensitivity to a different “energy”, “frequency” or “feel”. I’m not quite sure how to describe it’s essence with words.

Great point.

This is quite complex and i am not sure i understand. So once an empath can make the distinction they may still have to work through their conditioning on how they should be treating others and situations right? 

Also let's say someone is acting, pretending they were hurt, would you automatically be able to tell they were just faking? 

 

[Forestluv]

47 minutes ago, DrewNows said:

So once an empath can make the distinction they may still have to work through their conditioning on how they should be treating others and situations right? 

Yes

47 minutes ago, DrewNows said:

let's say someone is acting, pretending they were hurt, would you automatically be able to tell they were just faking? 

That is a good question and it may be different for different people. This is just how I would conceptualize it based on my own experience. I see empathy as a spectrum - on one extreme are people unable to empathize with others. Most people have so-so levels of empathizing with others. At the other extreme are so-called "empaths" - they are so highly in tune with certain energetics that it's almost like a different sense. Similar to how people talk about Kundalini and Chakra energetics. Some people are more in tune with it. I would also say there is a degree of maturity and skill with it. An empath could very immature, ungrounded and unskill - yet still be on the extreme of empathy.

Your question for me opens up some interesting dynamics within this energetic sphere. In particular, when we add in the other extreme - a person skilled at manipulating and controlling energy dynamics. Ime, awareness for the empath is prior establishing "boundaries".

As an example, a couple years ago one of my students was trying to schedule a make-up exam with me. She seemed like a student trying to get her way and asking for extra accomadations - like having a private room with a door that closes. I just didn't want to deal with her hassle and gave her the room she wanted. During her make-up exam, I checked in on her and caught her using her smartwatch. This is clearly against course policy and is grounds for failing her on the exam. Buuuut. . . she has this very distraught sense about her. She pauses to collect herself. She apologizes and tells me her dad just texted her that they are getting divorced. She says she doesn't know how to handle this and can't think straight. She shows me she had only completed a few questions. She tells me she has had anxiety and panic disorders in the past and doesn't want to spiral into that again. I was experiencing high anxiety and a very strong desire to relieve this anxiety (both for myself and her). I told her she needed to take care of herself first and I will work with her on this. I will come up with a way for her to retake it. . . In an effort to help further, I call psychological services to ask for some advice about the best way to help her through this difficult situation. The psychologist asked me with a confused voice "What's the student' name again?" I tell her. A few minutes later she returns and says "That student's parents got divorced two years ago". At that moment, there was awareness and the energetic dynamics completely changed. Since I had a somewhat mature base at that time, I was able to get re-centered and grounded. I was now "immune" to this energetic type of manipulation. I began observing her and notice very subtle ways that she used femininity, emotions and vulnerability to manipulate. In particular certain men - men that lean toward empathy on the spectrum. And she was very very good at it. One of an empaths orientations is to help others and make things better - in particular when others are vulnerable, hurting and in need. There are some people on the opposite side that want to personally gain from that.

So ime, an ungrounded immature empath could absorb energy and not be able to differentiate the nature of the energy. It takes maturity to sit centered and grounded while experiences energetic dynamics and to see the energetic dynamics clearly. 

[DrewNows]

@Serotoninluvwow good example. I’m sure she has a history of that sort of behavior.  

This definitely gives me a better understanding! 

Edit: and I would agree with the grounding. I’ve implemented a bioenergetic warmup routine into my schedule. I used to do it everyday but now I usually just do aspects of it before working out 

Edited April 21, 2019 by DrewNows

[Nahm]

If all that is experienced comes and goes and therefore is not it, and if ‘it’ is what nonduality points to, then being an empath must therefore be a state / stage. If it’s a stage / stage, a great question is what is the next state / stage. One way to look at being an empathic is using spiral dynamics analogously. With each color there are the dualistic realizations, followed by nondualistic self realizations. If that’s agreeable, then the inspiration path wise to realize the true root of being an empath would be because channeling comes next. If that’s not agreeable, just ignore this. I don’t know nuthin really. 

[Forestluv]

3 hours ago, Nahm said:

If it’s a stage / stage, a great question is what is the next state / stage. One way to look at being an empathic is using spiral dynamics analogously. With each color there are the dualistic realizations, followed by nondualistic self realizations. If that’s agreeable, then the inspiration path wise to realize the true root of being an empath would be because channeling comes next. If that’s not agreeable, just ignore this. I don’t know nuthin really. 

I like that way of looking at it. I'm seeing empathy as more of a spectrum on a left-right axis, and development on a low-high axis. Just as some people have a natural aptitude for cognition, some people seem to have a natural aptitude for empathy. And just as one can develop their cognition up the SD scale, one can develop their empathic sense up the SD scale. I.e. there is yellow-level cognition and yellow-level empathy. Just as one can be highly intellectual, one can be highly empathic.

[Nahm]

@Serotoninluv Nice. I see that also now. 

[Flatworld Crusades]

On 22 April 2019 at 0:28 AM, JohnnyBravo said:

@Flatworld Crusades

You said empaths need to have boundaries.

I said in my answer empaths have to get boundaries.

We have both said the same thing and you also say you disagree with me. Wow.

Disagreeing with me for what motive of yours? Get a brain. If youre an empath by your definition then you can feel my rage from here over the internet at this stupidity of yours 

Honestly.

It wasn't my intention to misunderstand your comment on boundaries. It was a mistake.  I have no motive to disagree with you.

im not an Empath, fortunately I don't have to feel your rage. 

[pluto]

I believe empath is just another term for being more awake/aware/sensitive/conductive to universal energies.

Edited April 28, 2019 by pluto