Joker made another video on Leo

[Good-boy]

Don't forget to donate him in the link provided in his video. Lol

[OrpheusNovum]

Giving him attention gives him legitimacy. It's getting tiresome watching someone start a new thread every time this guy opens his facehole.

[Shadowraix]

4 hours ago, OrpheusNovum said:

Giving him attention gives him legitimacy. It's getting tiresome watching someone start a new thread every time this guy opens his facehole.

^ At this point it seems like people post about him so they can stroke their egoic feeling of superiority. Or to self validate that Leo is correct and he is not.

Thats just my projection. Its hard to follow this path when everybody questions your sanity.

[Commodent]

@OrpheusNovum He's right though.

[d0ornokey]

Meh bored of this guy. No more interest in entertaining orange spirituality 

[SOUL]

I've tried to watch some of his other videos and I found myself disinterested in it very quickly because he's pretty repetitive in his criticisms. Then I remembered that I have met him personally many years ago in Sedona when we crossed paths in each our own spiritual journey.

I understand his frustration with the new age rhetoric because I too find it tiresome. The difference is that I sought to transcend my feelings and opinions in life and about those contrived and quite often contradictory spiritual ideologies to instead focus on the cessation of self suffering and how to bring that to realization.

He has chosen to craft his own identity around being 'the debunker' story and he appears to get some sort of self satisfying reward from it. Yes, it's quite clear there are many scammy purveyors of new age psychobabble and this forum's very own founder has dabbled in the art of nonsense at times.

The miscommunication arises when people make objective 'truth' claims about subjective 'truth' revelations that aren't unverifiable and others try to impose objective 'truth' requirements upon subjective 'truth' experiences that cannot be scientifically validated.

Edited April 9, 2019 by SOUL

[DrewNows]

@SOULawesome share dude ?

10 minutes ago, SOUL said:

The miscommunication arises when people make objective 'truth' claims about subjective 'truth' revelations that aren't unverifiable and others try to impose objective 'truth' requirements upon subjective 'truth' experiences that cannot be scientifically validated

Really cool to see this put so simply into words instead of the usual “he’s gotta have an awakening to understand” explaination 

[Joseph Maynor]

I think Zzenn is a smart guy with a unique perspective.  I've learned a lot from being exposed to him.  No need to demonize him.  If you resonate with him, great.  If not, great.  It's just like he'll tell you himself about teachers and teachings, "eat the grapes and spit out the seeds."  It's like George Carlin used to say, "there are two knobs on the radio, on and off."  Nobody's forcing you to listen to any teacher.  If you don't like Zzenn, ignore him, plain and simple.  There's no need to try to demonize him.  That actually makes you look bad -- to try to demonize a teacher that you don't don't resonate with.  It's like you're saying, "if I don't like the guy, you shouldn't either -- if I don't like the guy, nobody should like the guy."  That's extremely arrogant and reactive.  That's a kind of "my way or the highway" attitude.

Edited April 9, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[DrewNows]

Definitely some kind of value in all perspectives especially those that might be dismissed out of ignorance 

[purerogue]

4 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

I think Zzenn is a smart guy with a unique perspective.  I've learned a lot from being exposed to him.  No need to demonize him.  If you resonate with him, great.  If not, great.  It's just like he'll tell you himself about teachers and teachings, "eat the grapes and spit out the seeds."  It's like George Carlin used to say, "there are two knobs on the radio, on and off."  Nobody's forcing you to listen to any teacher.  If you don't like Zzenn, ignore him, plain and simple.  There's no need to try to demonize him.  That actually makes you look bad -- to try to demonize a teacher that you don't don't resonate with.  It's like you're saying, "if I don't like the guy, you shouldn't either -- if I don't like the guy, nobody should like the guy."  That's extremely arrogant and reactive.  That's a kind of "my way or the highway" attitude.

It is not like I do not like him, its just that his videos are to badmouth what people do , you know kind of person who talks crap about others, but does not shed any light of what he himself is about and what is his way, can't really resonate when he puts nothing on other side. 

To put it in other words, I do not see any value of his videos other than to see his opinion about other people, I am not sure how his opinion can help me in any way. 

Edited April 9, 2019 by purerogue

[Dayo]

I am more into self actualization than spirituality. That said it is waste of time to debunk spirituality. It is better to think for your self and test it out in your direct experience.

[Quicksilver]

Keep in mind that one if the best way for a YouTube channel to grow is to piggyback on bigger channels. Which is why we see all these debunking videos appear all over the place 

[Scholar]

This is what happens when a human being does not develop the capacity to recognize the limitations of formal operation cognition and does not transition into vision logic or post-formal. You have to understand that from his perspective, what he is saying and interpreting, is actually valid and correct. Nothing you ever will tell him is going to make sense to him, in fact it cannot make sense to him.

People in here have a tendency to dismiss this as pure ego, but that is very reductionistic and simply false. I can only recommend again and again that people in this community start to read some of the books on Leo's book list. The positions Leo is communicating are far more sophisticated than most people's understanding of the conclusions of these positions are. Leo's hour long videos are not even proper introductions into these topics, and people come away from them thinking they have understood them.

 

This cannot be reduced to epistemology or egoic behavior, there are very specific reasons for why these positions necessarily arise within a human mind, how and why they are overcome. Once you actually go through these stages yourself you will see, feel and understand why conventional communication between these cognitive operators are relatively futile. It is in a very real way as if you tried to make an infant understand what object permanence is. It is not merely an understanding that can be communicated, it is a perception that is connected to cognition. It is how the mind generates it's own subjective reality. Thus it is not even knowledge or a merely a perception, it is actually a difference in the subjective realities between two subjects.

These perceptions and cognitive operators structure your reality, and you expect these people to take in information that was generated by cognitive operators and perception that are simply non-existence in their mind structures and consciousness. You cannot understand object permanence if you have no experience of object permanence.

 

You guys really need to read more books.

[Joseph Maynor]

24 minutes ago, Scholar said:

This is what happens when a human being does not develop the capacity to recognize the limitations of formal operation cognition and does not transition into vision logic or post-formal. You have to understand that from his perspective, what he is saying and interpreting, is actually valid and correct. Nothing you ever will tell him is going to make sense to him, in fact it cannot make sense to him.

People in here have a tendency to dismiss this as pure ego, but that is very reductionistic and simply false. I can only recommend again and again that people in this community start to read some of the books on Leo's book list. The positions Leo is communicating are far more sophisticated than most people's understanding of the conclusions of these positions are. Leo's hour long videos are not even proper introductions into these topics, and people come away from them thinking they have understood them.

 

This cannot be reduced to epistemology or egoic behavior, there are very specific reasons for why these positions necessarily arise within a human mind, how and why they are overcome. Once you actually go through these stages yourself you will see, feel and understand why conventional communication between these cognitive operators are relatively futile. It is in a very real way as if you tried to make an infant understand what object permanence is. It is not merely an understanding that can be communicated, it is a perception that is connected to cognition. It is how the mind generates it's own subjective reality. Thus it is not even knowledge or a merely a perception, it is actually a difference in the subjective realities between two subjects.

These perceptions and cognitive operators structure your reality, and you expect these people to take in information that was generated by cognitive operators and perception that are simply non-existence in their mind structures and consciousness. You cannot understand object permanence if you have no experience of object permanence.

 

You guys really need to read more books.

This is a good example of "knowledge signaling" when I get around to writing about it in my journal.  Knowledge signaling is basically intellectual virtue signaling -- it's saying, "you lack the superior knowledge that I have, so you lose and I win."

Edited April 9, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[Scholar]

 

16 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

This is a good example of "knowledge signaling" when I get around to writing about it in my journal.  Knowledge signaling is basically intellectual virtue signaling -- it's saying, "you lack the superior knowledge that I have, so you lose and I win."

This might be true if I made an argument in a debate or a discussion that would be saying that, but I am not. I simply made recommendations to people in this forum who I repeatedly see reduce everything to very limited concepts that they somewhere caught, like for example the concept of "ego". If you reduce everything to a very broad concept you will actually lose understanding , and more than that you will actually fail to recognize lack of knowledge within a certain domain.

I don't see how that is knowledge signalling, and I think you are being very close-minded and defensive for some reason. Sure I was signalling knowledge, that was the whole point so that I could get people motivated to read up on some of this stuff themselves, it's not like I have an inherent superiority, you literally just have to read the books on Leo's book list.

 

To even suggest that what I am doing is due to some sort of arrogance or that it is some sort of debate tactic is so ironic. You literally just dismissed everything I said on the basis that it is knowledge signalling, without providing any rational to how it is "knowledge signalling" or in what way it would even be relevant to the discussion. What if I actually have a deeper understanding of human cognition and development than you do? You will invalidate that because I recommend you books?

What are you doing here? 

Edited April 9, 2019 by Scholar

[Andreas]

The mechanics and implications of stigmatization goes so deep. It might be one of the biggest traps there is. Even referring to it as a trap might be a trap. It's an entire field of study. 

Edited April 9, 2019 by Andreas

[Dumb Enlightened]

12 hours ago, purerogue said:

It is not like I do not like him, its just that his videos are to badmouth what people do , you know kind of person who talks crap about others, but does not shed any light of what he himself is about and what is his way, can't really resonate when he puts nothing on other side. 

To put it in other words, I do not see any value of his videos other than to see his opinion about other people, I am not sure how his opinion can help me in any way. 

It's because there is no value, the funniest part is that the video is half an hour long LOL

Edited April 9, 2019 by Dumb Enlightened

[DrewNows]

7 minutes ago, Dumb Enlightened said:

It's because there is no value, the funniest part is that the video is half an hour long LOL

The value is in his perspective. If you aren’t open to viewing his perspective obviously it’s valueless. I find it interesting to see how he interprets Leo because it goes to show many are not ready to meet Leo where he’s at and even the followers who have simply chosen to trust Leo are unknowingly fooling themselves if they think they can simply take Leo’s word (or anyone else for that matter) on the nature of reality and or ultimate truth 

[Dumb Enlightened]

13 minutes ago, DrewNows said:

The value is in his perspective. If you aren’t open to viewing his perspective obviously it’s valueless. I find it interesting to see how he interprets Leo because it goes to show many are not ready to meet Leo where he’s at and even the followers who have simply chosen to trust Leo are unknowingly fooling themselves if they think they can simply take Leo’s word (or anyone else for that matter) on the nature of reality and or ultimate truth 

There's no perspective, he just criticizes people for saying things he doesn't believe to be true, is the classical skeptical that apply skepticism to everything but not for science, so he is partial

[whoareyou]

Ironically, this guy is totally right. And the OP+comments in this thread are a proof of it. Even though LEO states to not follow him blindly, a lot of you follow him blindly, without understanding what he is saying. And given the amount of videos he releases, there is too much information for many to grasp. When anyone criticizes LEO, you feel the right to defend him - a trap of the EGO. What you did, is you replaced your "old" identity, with "spiritual" identity - AKA EGO.

The more conscious you become, the desire to follow anyone or having a GURU disappears. And you are able to see the value in different perspectives.