I think sometimes Green stage person can be LESS aware than orange-blue person

[Nivsch]

It can happen, for my opinion, when green is so polarized and deep in his agenda that his range of sight is narrower than the moderate half blue-half orange person.  for example - an extremist leftist person can be naive and dont understand how our enemies are thinking and why blue-orange strategies are more efficient than green strategied in detering our enemies from attack us, and preserving our country strong enough to defeat our enemies. i can see it many times in Israel (im israerli citizen) and in the smart way which TRUMP understands the middle-east which is WAY better than OBAMA's very limited understanging.

Just to know that 50% of the Israeli people are very developed orange-green people and they are not less developed than any european or american person. i say it because there is misunderstand israel (and israelis) many times and there are meny biased view about this state   

 

[BjarkeT]

I think you are right. 

[Forestluv]

I would make a distinction here between "development" and "awareness". I would say the Tier1 stages involve much more development. Awareness really expands during the Tier1 to Tier2 transition. I would also make a distinction between the underlying developmental skills/values and the personality.

For example, consider the development of learning algebra in middle school, pre-calculus in high school and calculus in a University. Clearly, a University student who has studied calculus is at a higher developmental level than a middle school student studying algebra. Of course the University student could be a jackass and taunt middle school students as being dumb. Yet that doesn't change the underlying principle that calculus is more advanced than algebra and the University student is more advanced in this regard.

[Equanimitize]

7 hours ago, Nivsch said:

It can happen, for my opinion, when green is so polarized and deep in his agenda that his range of sight is narrower than the moderate half blue-half orange person.  for example - an extremist leftist person can be naive and dont understand how our enemies are thinking and why blue-orange strategies are more efficient than green strategied in detering our enemies from attack us, and preserving our country strong enough to defeat our enemies. i can see it many times in Israel (im israerli citizen) and in the smart way which TRUMP understands the middle-east which is WAY better than OBAMA's very limited understanging.

 

Sometimes Green falls back to Blue/Red when not properly integrated, and especially when not aware of shadow. Also remember there are many developmental lines. You can be high in morality and very low in cognitive. You can be very high in cognitive and very low in morality (Nazi Doctors).

Awareness=Consciousness, Having higher levels of consciousness is not directly correlated with moving up Spiral Dynamics. For instance, you can be fully enlightened and be at stage Blue i.e. certain Zen Monasteries.

Try not to confuse consciousness as it pertains to spiritual evolution and states of consciousness VS your level of development as it pertains to world views and your capacity to be more inclusive.

[Truth Addict]

@Nivsch

I don't think it's that Obama is less developed than Trump.

I think Trump is just at the same level of development as Middle-easterners, that's why he can perform very well between them.

Probably Obama was way over their heads.

Edited April 6, 2019 by Truth Addict

[Leo Gura]

@Nivsch You clearly have yet to grow into Green, since your worldview has this notion of "enemies". From higher levels you will see there are no enemies.

Sure, any stage can have a lapse in awareness. Awareness goes up and down all day long. That's not the issue. The issue is your stage of development.

There are valid criticisms of Green, but you are criticizing Green from below, not above. Seems like you are Blue/Orange.

[kieranperez]

Green is much more nuanced, all-inclusive, and developed than Orange... much less Blue. 

You’re only viewing Green from its excesses. Yeah, Green has PLENTY of excesses. There will be tons of problems with Green... just like there was with Blue and Orange! Do you realize that if you were to go back in history when say Orange was emerging after the excesses of Blue that the criticism was exactly the same on the meta level?

People like Jordan Peterson, Ben Shapiro, etc. that demonize and try lash at Green are just like those part of the mind and body that go off trying to retain homeostasis when you’re creating a new habit or if you’re about to kill the ego! The collective mind resists dying! 

I challenge you to go to an underground rave or go to a burner festival or just hangout here in the San Francisco Bay Area (granted, SF has gotten extremely gentrified). You tell me what you think then.

Blue and Orange aren’t even very much in touch with love with for that matter. 

Not to bash, but I hope your comment on Trump being more nuanced than Obama (regardless of what the subject matter is) was a joke.

Edited April 6, 2019 by kieranperez

[Joseph Maynor]

I don't think less aware, but Green definitely is a moralistic character who tends to get wrapped up in their own views and tries to force everyone else into those views as well.

Edited April 6, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[kieranperez]

2 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

I don't think less aware, but Green definitely is a moralistic character who tends to get wrapped up in their own views and tries to force everyone else into those views as well.

That’s just 1st tier as a whole. That’s not just a function of Green. Blue, Red, Orange, Green. That’s the whole thing that 1st tier doesn’t see - it’s own mayopic point of view. Each stage thinks its the best stage. 

Edited April 6, 2019 by kieranperez

[Joseph Maynor]

3 minutes ago, kieranperez said:

That’s just 1st tier as a whole. Blue, Red, Orange, Green. That’s the whole thing that 1st tier doesn’t see - it’s own mayopic point of view. Each stage thinks its the best stage. 

But Blue and Green tend to be moralistic characters.  We might call them do-gooders.  Of course their do-gooding is from their own perspective.  They don't see beyond their own perspective when it comes to their moralistic tendencies.

Edited April 6, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[kieranperez]

4 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

But Blue and Green tend to be moralistic characters.

So is Orange if you actually think about it and look. 

Orange’s moralism is that they SHOULD progress, people SHOULD be rational and scientifically minded and be objectivists, you SHOULD just get material and personal success. If you actually look at Orange people you will see this is kind of should’s and moralism they have. Rather than having their moralism be directly related to others, it’s directly related to themselves in advancement to their own strategic and cold logical self agenda.

Look at Neil DeGrasse Tyson, Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, etc. they’re perfect examples of this. A lot of their careers thrive strictly off of their moralism. 

Edited April 6, 2019 by kieranperez

[Joseph Maynor]

2 minutes ago, kieranperez said:

So is Orange if you actually think about it and look. 

Orange’s moralism is that they SHOULD progress, people SHOULD be rational and scientifically minded and be objectivists, you SHOULD just get material and personal success. If you actually look at Orange people you will see this is kind of should’s and moralism they have. Rather than having their moralism be directly related to others, it’s directly related to themselves in advancement to their own strategic and cold logical self agenda.

Yeah, but that's different from the social moralizing that Blue and Green engage in.  Orange doesn't really care so much about social moralizing.

Edited April 6, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[kieranperez]

@Joseph Maynor you’re making the case of how Green and Blue moralize and I’m point out to you that Orange moralizes, criticizes, etc. just like them. The content is different but they still apply just as much. All because it’s not necessarily directed at the collective (like Blue and Green is focused on “other” rather than “self” like Orange) doesn’t mean it doesn’t apply. 

[kieranperez]

4 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Orange doesn't really care so much about social moralizing.

Sure it does. Not to the same degree because it’s values are different but it still has social moralization about those who don’t model Orange values. Whether it be direct at Green liberals in Haight where we live or at fundamentalists. Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, and such people, their whole shtick is moralizing!

[Joseph Maynor]

2 minutes ago, kieranperez said:

Sure it does. Not to the same degree because it’s values are different but it still has social moralization about those who don’t model Orange values. Whether it be direct at Green liberals in Haight where we live or at fundamentalists. Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, and such people, their whole shtick is moralizing!

Ok I see.  I'm thinking more of social moralizing in the interpersonal sense.  You're right, but we're talking about two different things. 

Edited April 6, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[kieranperez]

@Joseph Maynor yeah man, I hear you. I mean, hell, you and I live in SF and I personally can get very annoyed by it personally. 

I cant even go to the Zen center here anymore because it’s too much relativism to the point where there’ll be a disucussion where they’ll be an ideological rant about how there’s no gender and all this and I’m sitting there just wanting to yell “YOURE NOT A GENDER, YOURE NOT EVEN A PERSON!”... half joking on that.

So I understand because that’s what you and I personally tend to see a lot of everyday. 

I remember in high school, I was balancing the peak of my Orange sort of self (which I still have A LOT to work on) as a hardcore athlete that wanted a lot of success and with a very deeply entrenched Orange household with NYC fashion oriented parents who didn’t like being in nature and at the same time being deep in the Bay Area underground rave scene (like the Ghost Ship Warehouse Fire that was on CNN, used to party in that building all the time). I bring this up because I had my feet deep in 2 totally different stages and I remember being so confused because I saw the validity of both of them and also the excesses of both of them and also saw the same common problem which was their own mayopia. 

Again though, Green is much more evolved into love than that of Orange and especially than that of Blue for sure. Their way more inclusive and accepting. Remember, the more evolved you are, the more inclusive you become. 

[Joseph Maynor]

@kieranperez Green has this Jesus Complex, but it's not coming from as pure of a place as they like to think it does.  They don't see their own Ego-Mind and how that's functioning clearly.  Orange is too focused on themselves and Green is not focusing enough on themselves.  Green plays the social martyr so as to avoid focusing on themselves: finding a pathway to feed their own Egos and to feel superior to everyone else.  Orange feeds their Egos by attaining and obtaining actual things in their own lives.

Edited April 6, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[kieranperez]

@Joseph Maynor man I get it but just understand that Blue felt the same when Orange finally started “spreading”. 

Every stage has its excesses, it’s own hypocrises, toxicities, ideology, etc. 

Orange is still plenty obnoxious. Stuff like bro-culture to me has always been the biggest turn off (even when I was heavily in Orange).

And I’m sure if you talk to certain people who aren’t probalt-right or aren’t for ethnocentric groups that live in central Florida, they’d have plenty of things to say about how obnoxious the KKK groups are there when they go parading around their stuff. And believe it or not... that was once a high development that was necessary at the time!

Understand what’s happening on the meta level. Remember this is how it always goes whenever a new stage starts to emerge. This is how a culture reaches 2nd tier! This is growth! Change is never pretty. 

[Joseph Maynor]

@kieranperez I'm not a fan of Orange either, but Orange has an integrity that Green lacks and Green has an integrity that Orange lacks.

[Nivsch]

@Leo Gura Hi Leo thank you for your response, I really understand why you think what you think about me (it indeed may look from my message when someone is reading this when not knowing me) but i have to say that you are missing me because i have never voted for any right-wing party and in tuesday there is election in israel and i will vote for Centrist party.

I am training mindfulness for 2.5 years so far (not sitting but doing it 20 minutes a day when walking) and also the "do nothing" method and last year i started to read books about happiness and positive psycology and budhism for the main goal of improving my mental health (ocd and anxiety) and all of this really help me  I am vegan since 2013 (because of animals right), i am very emotionally against deforestation and polution of the sea.

I think that health system is terrible (not the emergency health care but the "everyday" health care) by damaging our health and i believe very strongly in natural health and 801010 raw diet. Im not fully 801010 but try to embrace its principles in some degree and more and more during the time.

I am against the "only money" thinking of trump and against the only macro-economi agenda of our prime minister netanyaho and i think he doesnt really understand the citizens. He doesnt pay enough attention to disabled person - physically and *mentally* of course that in that subject our society is still in medieval era (in mental health understanding).

Of course i support LGBTQ rights but it also because me myself is gay (not sure that fully gay but mostly fore sure 80%-95%) and my parents accepted it very quickly and positively and my father often asks me how is going with my dates and if i have dates and etc.

And i was *SO* excited by Spiral Dynamics that just one week ago i finished summarizing all your lectures Leo in hebrew and of course credited you in my summary - nemtioned your name and links to all your spiral dynamics lectures in youtube and mentioned your website - and also a little from another sites and articles of some other people, to send it to everyone in my family and friends

I hope to win the election but I know that even if we loose, it may help for the longer run so i am going to use this model a lot in trying to teach the political activists of our party the YELLOW style of thinking and strategies trough the summery i did.

I emphsize for them than only yellow strategy can be effective in their activities. It will take time to them to read and response to that (not easy haha) now they are so busy in their activities of elections so they are not going to read it even if i really want them to do so

Yes i have passion to succes and orange stage is not going to leave me so fast but i think i have a lot of green and iam trying to be more meta thinking to raise our country in the spiral (this is now the main goal of my political activity).

 

Edited April 6, 2019 by Nivsch
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