Witnessing and Disidentification . The Same ?

[Giulio Bevilacqua]

Is disidentification a different "process " from Witnessing ? I think it's the same "thing" but only said with different names .

I think we have to make some clearness about this topic , because it can bring us in wrong directions . 

Do they need an effort to be "done" ? In my experience no, because instead of being we are doing and that could be ego.

I would like to explain better but the leanguage is limiting my expression sorry. 

[Salvijus]

Usually the process of witnessing leads to disidentification. As you look at your identity, your ego, your mind continuesly, the distance between you and your mind increases more and more. That's what is generaly refered to as disidentification.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Salvijus

[FoxFoxFox]

@Giulio Bevilacqua No witnessing and complete dis-identification are not the same thing. The latter is synonymous with liberation when it's complete. The former is one step away. With witnessing, there still the sense that one is a separate being who is literally a witness to everything. There is still a subtle, formless "I" which dominates being. With liberation, this sense of being an "I" is gone. 

Edited April 5, 2019 by FoxFoxFox

[Giulio Bevilacqua]

2 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

Usually the process of witnessing leads to disidentification. As you look at your identity, your ego, your mind continuesly, the distance between you and your mind increases more and more. That's what is generaly refered to as disidentification.

Ok very good 

[Giulio Bevilacqua]

51 minutes ago, FoxFoxFox said:

@Giulio Bevilacqua No witnessing and complete dis-identification are not the same thing. The latter is synonymous with liberation when it's complete. The former is one step away. With witnessing, there still the sense that one is a separate being who is literally a witness to everything. There is still a subtle, formless "I" which dominates being. With liberation, this sense of being an "I" is gone. 

But witnessing is needed to disidentify 

[Jkris]

@Giulio Bevilacqua yes. Try to witness all your free time. I am finding it difficult to witness while indulged in worldly activities. 

[FoxFoxFox]

@Giulio Bevilacqua Not necessarily. Enough energetic intensity can overwhelm the mind and lead to surrender. Witnessing is a useful tool, but by no means the only way.

[Giulio Bevilacqua]

1 hour ago, Jkris said:

@Giulio Bevilacqua yes. Try to witness all your free time. I am finding it difficult to witness while indulged in worldly activities. 

I find the same difficulities . During music i can  not  be aware i get so lost in doing . I'ts hard 

[Aakash]

@FoxFoxFox @David Hammond

is the difference like this 

witnessing a thought ---)       awarness of no thought, awareness of thought, awareness of no thought again <-> the slight identification is that there is still a thought and that is happening and someone is aware of it 

then complete disconnection ----> no-thing happening, its not even awareness of something, the thought never even happened

[Truth Addict]

@Giulio Bevilacqua

You wouldn't be asking such a question if you have experienced disidentification.

You're witnessing all the time, the question is: are you disidentified?

It's a very distinct experience, you can't miss it.

Edited April 5, 2019 by Truth Addict

[Preetom]

3 hours ago, FoxFoxFox said:

With witnessing, there still the sense that one is a separate being who is literally a witness to everything. There is still a subtle, formless "I" which dominates being. With liberation, this sense of being an "I" is gone. 

How do you know all this? You must have been aware or witnessed this dynamic going on, right?

And if you can 'witness' it, then that means that formless 'I' is no longer an 'I'.

da ta

Edited April 5, 2019 by Preetom

[Jkris]

@FoxFoxFox overwhelming energy intensity is very difficult to attain. 

Only once i had that and tried to do self enquiry. Who is knowing this. I lost my conciousness altogether for 2 minutes. Then conciousness returned. I was confused more ?

[FoxFoxFox]

4 hours ago, Aakash said:

@FoxFoxFox @David Hammond

is the difference like this 

witnessing a thought ---)       awarness of no thought, awareness of thought, awareness of no thought again <-> the slight identification is that there is still a thought and that is happening and someone is aware of it 

then complete disconnection ----> no-thing happening, its not even awareness of something, the thought never even happened

@Aakash

Who is having these thoughts? Find that "I" and let it dissolve. 

2 hours ago, Jkris said:

@FoxFoxFox overwhelming energy intensity is very difficult to attain. 

Only once i had that and tried to do self enquiry. Who is knowing this. I lost my conciousness altogether for 2 minutes. Then conciousness returned. I was confused more ?

@Jkris

It's like every other thing. Practice makes it easier.

Also, it's funny how we have it backwards. It's not you who lost consciousness. It's consciousness who lost "you". 

consciousness loses "you" every night! "You" returns every morning and says, boy I had a great sleep last night. How does "you" know this? Only by inferring it from consciousness. Consciousness never sleeps. It is never lost. In sleep, consciousness is being aware of pure void. There is no content in the void for the mind to identify with, so there is no sense of separate self. But the real you, consciousness goes on. Being enlightened is exactly like sleep, only the the void is not empty. 

[Highest]

You go from the witness to dis-identify with the witness itself. It will still be there witnessing the mind etc but there will be no "I" involved in that anymore. When all identification with the witness and "I" dissolves that is liberation. You are nothing, zero. Simultaneously you are everything, the only one in existence. You are God. 

[SOUL]

13 minutes ago, FoxFoxFox said:

Who is having these thoughts? Find that "I" and let it dissolve

Who is asking this of who after remembering a member name and password to log on a specifically sought out internet forum to instruct someone in 'enlightenment'? Your advice would be to find that and dissolve it.

[Forestluv]

@Giulio Bevilacqua I think this is a very good question for self-inquiry and contemplation that can yield deep insights. Yet I also think it can be over-intellectualized and conceptualized - which can be a distraction. There are many different nuances and ways it could be answered. Many different ways we could use the terms "witness" and "disidentification".

Personally, I've found it helpful to engage in practice that observes the "ISness" of the underlying dynamic. There is an essence of direct experience in this area that is inexplicable. During meditation, I've asked "what is identification?" and I watch. If I get into thinking, I'm off track. I just watch and observe for "it" to appear. A thought like "I procrastinate too much" may arise. Just observe that. Observe the "ISness" of that identification as if it was under a microscope. Is there a feeling present associated with the thought? Is there an energy present? Is there a sense about it? Do more thoughts arise that are linked to the first thought? It involves observing, not analyzing it or trying to figure it out. If that arises, then I stop. 

I've found this type of nonverbal direct experience to be much deeper than merely thinking. I may try to put the direct experience into words, yet at that point the words aren't so important. The underlying sentiment is much more important.