Vipassana and psychedelics

[MsNobody]

I'm doing my second vipassana next week and would like to know if you guys have tried microdosing or any other substances (even nootropics) while doing the retreat, I already know they don't recommend use of anything (so I'm not looking for judgement) my first one I followed all their rules but I was thinking here if I could benefit more if I microdosed, since I'm already in the process of microdosing right now

Appreciate all the comments

[outlandish]

I've thought of doing this too, I think it would fit really well. The problem for me might be the guilty discomfort in breaking the rules, but if you're completely OK with that, it should be fine IMO.

It would be cool if there were a sangha that approved of this kind of thing. I can see how it could be problematic to openly approve the use of psychedelics during meditation retreats though, for sure people would take it too far and it would get messy.

[legendary]

I microdosed 25ug of LSD once every 3 days during my vipassana retreat. It was definitely helpful.

But knowing about nootropics now, I'd recommend armodafinil instead.

[Forestluv]

@MsNobody I've found microdosing and meditation to go well together. In the past I would have had no problem breaking the "rule" since I knew I would be stable on a microdose. I figured the rule was set up because they organizers don't want anyone getting into a bad place, freaking out, being weird and disruptive etc. I knew I wouldn't be like that so I didn't have a problem with it. Yet after doing an Ayahuasca retreat, my view has changed somewhat on this. At the ceremonies, the shared energy within the collective consciousness was really important. One person's energetics could alter the collective and adversely affect another. The only rules were that everyone had to drink at least some Ayahuasca and no individual could leave the grounds. This would throw off the collective conscious and adversely affect individual conscious. At first, this seemed hokey to me and I was like "whatever", no big deal. Yet after the ceremonies, I "got it" at a deeper level because I had direct experience with my own individual conscious, the group conscious and other individual consciousnesses in the group. During one ceremony I went into an insanity zone that was horrific. I brought a benzo in case this happened. I reached for the benzo and there was an extremely strong message "Don't do it". So I didn't do it. After the ceremony I told one of the an experienced person this and he looked at me shocked that I almost did that. Not because of my own personal welfare, yet because of the impact it could have on the collective conscious energetic dynamics. I never believed in this type of thing until I directly experienced it. 

For me, the issue is the collective conscious dynamics and how I may affect it. I have mini-dosed in a deprivation tank. That is against the rules and I really don't care because I knew I would be ok and there was no collective conscious to be impacted. Similarly, I have mini-dosed in social situations such as a concert - against the rules. Yet, I didn't think there was a sensitive collective consciousness in a concert or movie theatre that would be thrown such that altered energetic affect others. For me, a vippassana retreat would be a gray area because it is a highly sensitive collective conscious of awareness and energetics. A microdose might not have much of an effect, yet LSD is also a potent energetic amplifier. I would be more concerned about the effect the LSD has on the collective conscious and other people's individual conscious more than the effect the microdose would have on my own. Who knows, perhaps the microdose would contribute positively to the collective conscious. 

[outlandish]

That's a good point re the collective conscious. The problem here is that you're bringing a substance into the collective mind that the collective mind did not consent to, or that it explicitly un-consented to.

The grey area is around the wording of these rules. It's usually phrased like "don't take intoxicants or mind-altering substances" - it's pretty clear that an LSD microdose doesn't fit into the category of "intoxicant". As far as mind-altering substances goes, tea is usually sanctioned and provided, which is definitely a mind altering substance, so we have to take that to mean a certain degree of mind-altering. A microdose is similarly mild as a cup of tea.

But we can be pretty sure that these rules are in place to tell people not to take drugs including LSD. If you asked the head officiant at the facility they would say no.

 

22 hours ago, legendary said:

I microdosed 25ug of LSD once every 3 days during my vipassana retreat. It was definitely helpful.

But knowing about nootropics now, I'd recommend armodafinil instead.

I think of a microdose as just below or right at the threshold of perceptibility, so like 5-10ug. I'd call 25ug more of a mini-dose because at that point it's a fully perceptible (but mild) trip.

What do others on here mean by microdose? 

[MsNobody]

Oh that's so nice hearing everyone's opinion, thank you very much!

I really didn't think about the collective consciousness, I will take into consideration, maybe I will do one day and see how it goes.

@outlandish I'm doing around 10 or 15ug, it's very subtle cause I have a high tolerance, I actually don't feel anything at all, just more awareness and happiness overall

[thesmileyone]

I think by the time you get to day 6, you will naturally be in a learning state of difference, and psychedelics will complicate it, in a way that you won't find it easy to integrate afterwards.

Just 5 days of darkness retreat is enough to trigger mass dmt release in the brain, as is 7 days of vipassana.

It's up to you what you do but the problem is that when trying to integrate you won't know which realizations were caused by the external drug vs internally.

All vispassana really is, is a method of taking you out of normality into the unknown.

[herghly]

Try modafinil instead of microdosing. It is much better for meditation 

[legendary]

14 hours ago, outlandish said:

I think of a microdose as just below or right at the threshold of perceptibility, so like 5-10ug. I'd call 25ug more of a mini-dose because at that point it's a fully perceptible (but mild) trip.

What do others on here mean by microdose? 

It would vary from person to person.

I have a high tolerance to psychedelics (and all drugs in general). I arrived at 25ug through some trial & error and it works fine for me. Above 35ug is when it becomes a mini-trip for me.

Of course, everyone should experiment and arrive at their optimal microdose.

[outlandish]

@legendary wow it's amazing to be reminded how much these dosages can vary from person to person. That's like a factor of around 5x between you and I. I can't imagine that fully scales though, like if I took 100ug it probably wouldn't be subjectively as intense as if you took 500ug.

14 hours ago, herghly said:

Try modafinil instead of microdosing. It is much better for meditation 

I disagree, it's different not better. Better for focus, worse for openness.

19 hours ago, thesmileyone said:

It's up to you what you do but the problem is that when trying to integrate you won't know which realizations were caused by the external drug vs internally.

I don't think that needs to be problematic. It's still internal, all experience is fundamentally subjective. An experience/realization can be catalyzed by the drug, but the drug itself is content-free. 

It's like if you use a pair of binoculars and see a bird very far away. You don't need to wonder if seeing that bird was an internal or external realization because you used binoculars. You just saw a bit further or with more resolution thanks to the lenses, and experienced seeing that bird.

[legendary]

@outlandish You're right. It's not linearly scalable when it comes to actual tripping since the concept of 'objective comparison' flies out of the window.

With microdosing, we're all probably looking for the same things: Creative boost, energy, openness, better mood, etc.

But with tripping, it becomes very personal and subjective. But still, I find that I have a greater tolerance than others. The max I've done is 400ug LSD and 40mg 2c-b, and I know many people don't need that much. Others may have the same realizations as me at lower doses, but comparing them verbally is moot. 

[cirkussmile]

I would not use in a retreat like that. Meditation 24/7 in silence for 9 days is enough ☺️

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, David Hammond said:

@MsNobody Psychedelic drug experiences are training wheels or the lazy mans road to spritual states. Ideally you want to develop the skills of being present naturally. 

I can see how that is true in many contexts and situations. Yet, ime it is not universally true. For example, psychedelics related to spiritaul states was anything but lazy for me. In some ways, it took more effort and courage than training for the marathon races I’ve done.

Imagine a person is to cut down a forest and they can use a handsaw or a chainsaw. Is it lazy to choose the chainsaw? I would say no. It takes work and effort to learn how to use the chainsaw and the risk of injury is much higher with the chainsaw. Yet at times, the chainsaw is a much more efficient tool.

Personally, I find it best to use both. Both tools have value when cutting down the forest. 

[Nahm]

@MsNobody What are you looking for with this retreat to bring into your life? Ex..deep relaxation / letting go / emptying / clearing some emotions....or maybe to spark up passion / creativity / lively-ness / neural networks? 

[Nahm]

@David Hammond Which psychedelics have you done? What doses? 

[Nahm]

@David Hammond Thanks for the response. It’s always interesting to hear the many ways one can ‘get there’. ?? 

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, David Hammond said:

I guess I should have said that the state is given freely on psychedelics and that training the mind is bypassed. Ultimately I still think it's better to learn how to sit and do self inquiry properly. For example I learned that you don't even have to consciously ask questions in self inquiry, just observe. This is all in the realm of training. 

Ime, I would say both methods have value. Rather than the term  “bypass”, I would say “a different route”. I would say neither route is free and both require effort and work - it’s just that each method had different type of effort/work. When the two methods are integrated, an emergent property arises that is greater than the sum of their parts. 

That’s just my experience, I can see how others would have different views based in their own experience.

[Forestluv]

@David Hammond  ♥️ ? 

[MsNobody]

@Nahm authenticity Nahm.

I’ve decided I’ll keep going with my microdose process, it’s been helping me tremendously, I’m sure there it won’t be different, it’s subtle but ive been having so much benefits.

My first Vipassana was so life changing I imagine what microdose can do, super excited! 

Thank you very much for those of you who gave me your POV, really appreciate it ?

 

 

[MsNobody]

@Serotoninluv @David Hammond I think one compliments the other, they are both tools, meditation is not easy, psychedelics are not easy, the worst thing would be doing nothing at all.

I’ve had so much purging done through psychedelics, meditation has helped me a lot, they both together are miraculous but without psychedelic I think I wouldn’t be here today and would still live 4 more years as a victim.

I was sexually abused and got a huge tattoo on the side of my body 6 months after, I didn’t know the tattoo was related to the abuse, until I took 3 tabs of LSD and cried for 3 hours nonstop in front of the mirror just shocked with the realization I tattooed my body just to make it my own again and the tattoo was like a label “belong to Laísa”, and I guess I would have this realization after some years, but that LSD trip was not just a realization, it was a whole process of purging, understanding, compassion with myself and with the person who abused me, it was not easy, it was not beautiful but man it was worth it. 

We are living in the best times, so many tools available, we are lucky ? 

Thank you very much for your opinion ?