Where do I start?

[cetus]

@Paul92 Paul I'm going to move this thread b-c ppl are hijacking it and taking it off topic. 

[cetus]

@Paul92 Did something happen that started this dark period if I may ask? Before that everything was fine?

[bejapuskas]

@Paul92  You are not alone Paul  We are here to help you, just take a break if this is too much for you.

[Ananta]

 Sorry about the hijacking. 

@Paul92 Hang in there. Sounds like you need to reconnect as best you can with life. Spend time with ppl, animals and nature. Try not to put nondual judgements upon your interactions. ...and definitely take a break from spirituality in all forms, until you're feeling better and grounded.  

[Paul92]

@cetus56 It's difficult to say exactly but around the turn of the new year when I read Tolle's PON. My dad told me about it and I had just gotten tinnitus, and I thought it was a book about some sort of CBT to be able to just focus yourself away from things. At first, I think I misinterpreted it. Like many people. I thought in saying "you are not your mind", I thought it meant that nobody's true nature is negative/unfair etc etc. I thought it meant that you don't have to believe the stories you tell yourself. But it is much deeper than that. It is actually saying, of course, that you don't exist! And neither does anyone else. We are just forms being made by God/Presense/Consciousness.

I wasn't completely sold on that. I've always been a materialist. And even now I don't subscribe to a lot of 'woo'. I sort of believe that consciousness is a process of the brain.

So I got a little happier...

And then around a week or so ago I realised that we are not our bodies. Every single atom that makes up our bodies has existed forever. I was in a relationship then, and it scared me to think that my girlfriend was not an absolute entity. I could kiss her on the cheek one day, then within a week, I'd be kissing an entirely different body. So which bit of her was real? Her mind? No, because the mind is not something tangible.

I went searching for answers but even materialists like Sam Harris say that the self is an illusion.

I was diagnosed with OCD many years ago and do go through periods of crazy rumination and I always want certainty on things. But who is the I?

So I thought I need to accept it and give the whole nondual thing a fair shot. And I still want to. But right now, it still hard to process. I was a person who always thrived off our individuality. I've never had a huge ego in the traditional sense of thinking I am something I'm not. I'm just a very normal person, I don't particularly strive for anything other than having a laugh with my friends and helping other people. But if those people are not individuals then I don't know how to get out of bed in a morning the same way.

@bejapuskas Thank you, appreciated.

[Paul92]

@Anna1 If someone could just tell me that my friends and family are real entities I'd be happy. 10000000% In fact, I've never been religious, but if everyone here was claiming that we are all individual souls in monkey bodies, damn I would sign up right now. I habour nobody anyone any hatred. All my life I have tried to be fair to everyone, because I saw people as individuals. It's just hard to lose the very thing that always made you tick..

[Forestluv]

@Paul92 I think you are "halfway" there. For me, this space was really uncomfortable and it seems to be super common for people. There is a realization, there is absence of meaning. Then mind often interprets that has there is no meaning. Yet, that is just adding meaning. Saying there is no meaning is a story - it is assigning meaning. A lot of suffering can arise from this. For me, this was a halfway point. The second half is to drop the story "there is no meaning. everything is an illusion" etc. It's really hard to do, yet very liberating. For me, life began to turn magnificent, magical.

One thing that helped me at this stage. . . Consider that colors are an illusion. Nothing has color. Your mind converts wavelength of light and just makes up color. A dog creates only a few colors in its mind. A mantis shrimp creates hundreds of colors human minds can't.

I love colors. I love colorful art. I love walking through the forest in autumn when the leaves are changing. It's so beautiful. Do I think "these colors are just an imagination in my mind. they don't really exist". Of course not. When I am in an art gallery and my friend is admiring the beautiful integration of colors do I turn to her and say "Sorry to break the news to you, but those colors don't exist. They are just an illusion your mind makes up". Of course not. We enjoy the beautiful colorful artwork together.

For me, letting my mind take a break was really helpful. To turn off the mind for a while and give it a break. During this stage I spent a lot of time in nature. At first I sat on a bench in sadness. Then I started noticing the beauty around me. The colors. The sounds. The trees, birds, streams. I was like a kid again climbing trees and observing dragonflies in awe. It's really beautiful. When I sat on the bench analyzing everything and going deep into awful storyland, I missed all this beauty. 

[Jkris]

@Anna1 ???

[cetus]

3 minutes ago, Paul92 said:

It's difficult to say exactly but around the turn of the new year when I read Tolle's PON.

 I read PON about the same time you did. I read about half of it and never finished it. It's not exactly a "feel good" book is it?. At least not to me. So many ppl rave about too so i had to see what I was missing. It just wasn't for me.

[Ananta]

3 minutes ago, Paul92 said:

If someone could just tell me that my friends and family are real entities I'd be happy.

They are real in the sense that they and you are whole, complete, nondual, unchanging awareness/consciousness and you all are having a human experience with different body/minds. Your experience is different from their experience, so there is "apparent" separation in that sense.

My human character exists, it's experienced, it's just not ultimately real. What's real is the fundamental aspect, which underlies all things and beings. With that said, each apparent being has thoughts/feelings/emotions that they feel and experience. To reinerate they/you are awareness having a human experience.

I hope this was helpful.

[Paul92]

@Serotoninluv  You say your friend.. this is what I mean... your friend isn't a separate identity from you. That is what hurts me. That I am not 'me', which I am quite happy being actually (not in this current state), and my friends are not they. We are in terms of an ego, but the ego is an illusion.

I love the world. Its brilliant. I love music. I love art. I love reading history. I love watching movies. I love food. I love other people. But if it all just me, then what is there to discover?

@Anna1 It's difficult. I understand the Self is an illusion in the sense that a lot of it is stories that we tell ourselves. I just don't like the idea that there is something else looking through my eyes and everyone else's. Sorry, it seems like a cruel ploy.

@cetus56 It's not a feel good book at all. It would have been brilliant if it was just about how you don't have to identify with YOUR negative thoughts. But like I've said above, it's a book about destroying your sense of self, or your ego. Which I know is difficult and probably why I am here. If I'm not real, then my loved ones aren't. And that's a lot to take in right now.

[tedens]

49 minutes ago, cetus56 said:

 I read PON about the same time you did. I read about half of it and never finished it. It's not exactly a "feel good" book is it?. At least not to me. So many ppl rave about too so i had to see what I was missing. It just wasn't for me.

Ecky does not speak to me almost at all.

[Ananta]

19 minutes ago, Paul92 said:

I just don't like the idea that there is something else looking through my eyes and everyone else's.

I get what you mean, especially in your current state of mind, but perhaps what your failing to grasp is that it's always been this way, always, but ignorance is bliss sometimes.

Also, there is a bit of a correction that needs pointed out. The "something else" you are referring to is "you" (awareness), your true identity. It's not some "thing" (ie. object), other than you, thats seeing through "your" apparent eyes.

[Paul92]

7 minutes ago, Anna1 said:

Also, there is a bit of a correction that needs pointed out. The "something else" you are referring to is "you" (awareness), your true identity. It's not some "thing" (ie. object), other than you, thats seeing through "your" apparent eyes.

But it isn't me, as I consider myself. And everyone will say that I am looking for your eyes and you are looking through mine.

If Paul was looking through Paul's eyes that would be great.

If my ex, Rebecca, was looking through Rebecca's eyes, that would be great.

We are all having our own experiences, that'd be wonderful.

[Ananta]

17 minutes ago, Paul92 said:

But it isn't me, as I consider myself. And everyone will say that I am looking for your eyes and you are looking through mine.

If Paul was looking through Paul's eyes that would be great.

If my ex, Rebecca, was looking through Rebecca's eyes, that would be great.

We are all having our own experiences, that'd be wonderful.

Maybe this will make more sense to you ...or maybe not? Let's try...

Although you, I, we are all awareness...you, I, we are all "associated" with different apparent body/mind's. So, Paul thinks/feels he is Paul, etc. when his intellect illumined by awareness "identifies" itself with the Paul ego.

When you fully awaken "from" Paul you will still experience Paul with all his antics, quirks, etc, etc ..So, I'm saying, you can't really get away from Paul. You just see Paul for what Paul is... this integration/assimilation takes as long as it takes and there are growing pains along the way.

You can't really unknow what you know, unless you don't really know it. If it's just a wimsical belief for you right now, then stop seeking, stop searching and go immerse yourself in life.

If you know it and there's no turning back, then get your mental/mind state balanced and then continue on your path to full realization and assimilation at a later time.

As always, just my 2 cents.

 

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, Paul92 said:

@Serotoninluv  You say your friend.. this is what I mean... your friend isn't a separate identity from you. That is what hurts me. That I am not 'me', which I am quite happy being actually (not in this current state), and my friends are not they. We are in terms of an ego, but the ego is an illusion.

I love the world. Its brilliant. I love music. I love art. I love reading history. I love watching movies. I love food. I love other people. But if it all just me, then what is there to discover?

I understand. My example assumes the existence of a person.

To me, it looks like you have become aware of the illusion. After spending one's whole life in "real", it can be very unsettling to realize "illusion".

Yet I think you are going from one extreme to another. I consider this "halfway" there. In terms of steps:

1. All is real

2. All is illusion

3. Illusion is Real and Real is Illusion.

For me, getting stuck in "step 2" was really uncomfortable. Once I realized the illusion for real, there was no turning back. I could never unsee it. I went into a tailspin. The problem with getting stuck in step 2 for me is creating a new story. This is why I like the color analogy because I had no attachment.

1. Colors are real (I spent most of my life realizing this)

2. Colors are illusion (I learned this in neuroscience - colors don't exist - the mind creates them in the brain).

3. Colors are both illusion and real

I did not have a problem with step 2 because I did not create a story about how awful this was. I didn't start thinking about how life no longer has meaning because colors aren't real. I didn't start wondering how I can live anymore if colors aren't real. I didn't think about how I can never love colors anymore. I didn't look at painting and sunset with depression because I now knew that the colors were illusions.

Therefore, I could easily go to step 3. I can look at a colorful painting and know that it is colorless. I know it is just wavelengths of colorless light. The colors are an illusion. Yet I also realize the colors are real. I'm looking around my room right now at all the colors. They are so obviously real. There is nothing more real than the colors I am looking at. How can I say otherwise? It is the most obvious thing ever. It's a no-brainer. So the colors are both illusion and real. Illusion = Real. Now, I don't even think about it. The colors are beautiful and I can fully immerse myself in the colors. Knowing the colors are both illusion and real ADDS depth to my life. I can relate to people in a different way. I relate to animals a different way. We all have unique experiences with colors and it's so beautiful. It is MORE beautiful than when I thought colors were just real.

From my POV, the suffering is arising not because of the awareness of illusion. Rather, it is due to attachment to ideas about what illusion and reality now means. Everything you have said so far is extra meaning you are ADDING. Just like if you started thinking how terrible it is that colors are just an illusion. I know how hard it is to get through. This was one of the hardest things for me to work through and at times I didn't want to live anymore. Yet when I got through it, much deeper appreciations, loves, connections arose. There is MUCH more once "step 3" is reached. Indescribable magnificence.

We are both One AND Separate. Direct experience with that was so profound it brought me to tears. It is indescribably beautiful. You and Me are both you and me AND One. Love and sorrow are separate and united. Notice how you are dividing love and sorrow in your mind. They are separate AND One. The experience of both love and sorrow as one is among the deepest most beautiful experiences of my life. 

The illusion aspect is only a big deal due to attachment to the other side - real. One is only a big deal due to attachment to the other side - separate. Sorrow is only a big deal due to attachment to the other side - love. It is the attachment.

A coin is both heads and tails. If the mind insists that the coin is EITHER heads OR tails it will not be able to see the coin is BOTH heads AND tails. Right now, you seem to be arguing for one side. You seem to keep saying "Well, yea but look at Heads. Ya, but there is still Heads. But how can it be Tails if there is Heads?". That mindset will not allow you to see both heads and tails. Concepts can be helpful to an extent, yet I found it helpful at times to shut off the thinking noise in my head and get out in nature. Ime the deeper realizations are not intellectual or conceptual and I need to relax that part of my mind for the deeper awareness to arise.

[bejapuskas]

@Paul92  Maybe you think, that they are your ego, which is not true in your perception, so it causes you to suffer.

[kieranperez]

7 hours ago, Shin said:

Except Leo is supposed to be the exemple and lead his community.

What is he doing instead ?

Being a condescendant Zen devil who says shit like that.

 

The more he woke, the more of an asshole prick he becomes.

This needs to adressed, because that's the root cause of this kind of behaviors.

 

Only him can do it though, but at that point I'm wondering if he is even conscious of this, his last posts make me doubt that A LOT.

That’s your problem with your petty selfish expectations. 

You nondual keyboard warriors who lack compassion, humility, self reflection, and open mindedness act like you know all there is to be known (and you definitely fit this bill in your other posts and replied to other people’s thread so I’m talking about you here to). This is apparent in the way you guys answer questions. 

Personally I’m glad a lot of these threads and comments get shut down from time to time. 

If I was a world class track coach and I ran my own team and I had athletes who I’ve been trying to coach through a multitude of ways and they don’t listen and act after reading a few books on training theory and now they act like know it alls (and make no mistake what you and a lot of people on here, including myself plenty of times) I would have to be hard with them and if they keep it up, guess what? They’re off the team. They would end up wasting my time, their time, and everyone else’s time. 

Your complaining and expectations of what Leo and all other nondual and personal development teachers should and shouldn’t do has everything to do with you. 

[bejapuskas]

1 hour ago, kieranperez said:

That’s your problem with your petty selfish expectations. 

You nondual keyboard warriors who lack compassion, humility, self reflection, and open mindedness act like you know all there is to be known (and you definitely fit this bill in your other posts and replied to other people’s thread so I’m talking about you here to). This is apparent in the way you guys answer questions. 

Personally I’m glad a lot of these threads and comments get shut down from time to time. 

If I was a world class track coach and I ran my own team and I had athletes who I’ve been trying to coach through a multitude of ways and they don’t listen and act after reading a few books on training theory and now they act like know it alls (and make no mistake what you and a lot of people on here, including myself plenty of times) I would have to be hard with them and if they keep it up, guess what? They’re off the team. They would end up wasting my time, their time, and everyone else’s time. 

Your complaining and expectations of what Leo and all other nondual and personal development teachers should and shouldn’t do has everything to do with you. 

Leo has a lot of responsibility. People are going suicidal on this forum, it is nothing to be overlooked. I think that we should be allowed to question Leo (I am glad we are) and that he can also learn something from us. He is probably more developed than most of us, I admire him, I am looking forward to his new videos, but still, there are some shady spots. I just feel like Leo is the kind of guy who can understand criticism.

[Paul92]

@Serotoninluv Thank you for taking the time to write all that out to me. Much appreciated. At this point in time, all I want is someone to talk to and try and get a grip on what is happening to me. So thanks.

I know what you are saying about how you could not unsee the illusion. Don't get me wrong, I am not ENTIRELY convinced of the illusion as of yet. But it seems pretty convincing. If I could pinpoint the Self as an absolute entity, I'd be out of this in a moment. For instance, if I could believe that you, me and everyone else were individual souls, even in monkey bodies, that lived on after this existence or whatever, I don't think I'd ever be depressed again. Because I know that we are all individual on some level and that we'd never actually die. How wonderful. But I don't see that.

What was your direct experience of that we are seperate and one?

I could think, yes we are clearly all separate, but within the universe, we are clearly one. But I don't that is what people are saying here. I'm just trying to understand that's all, please forgive me if I seem to be being deliberately obtuse or something. Not my intention.

I think these tablets are really screwing with my head and body too. I had an half day at work today and just came home and tried sleeping but it's not possible. My head feels physically very strange and I keep having muscle spasms. It's a strange sensation.

I know that colours are illusions. Essentially waves that my mind interprets one way. A dog's brain might interpret them as purple or black. But the illusion of someone you love seems a bit more significant to me than a colour

I'm still reeling from leaving this girl. Is it bad to miss her? Honestly, the times we had were phenomenal. To love and be loved in return.