The thought dilemma

[FoxFoxFox]

You know how the mind is a model making machine? How it creates representations of phenomena? (You can read all about that concept in Richard Dawkins' books.)

Well that's just the problem! The model making machines can only create approximations. They will never, ever capture the whole thing. We create these approximations then languish at the models inaccuracy and mistakingly our inability to understand.

Would you use a pair of pliers when you need to hammer a nail? Stop using the wrong tool. Instead of the mind, use surrender. 

[Jkris]

@FoxFoxFox how to surrender? Can you pls elaborate? 

[FoxFoxFox]

@Jkris

It all comes down to the intensity of desire for liberation. Intensity, felt as palpable energy within the body is not separate from divine energy. That energy, when heighten to the appropriate levels, will overwhelm your system to the point that the mind can't do anything but surrender. 

You can also follow the path of self-inquiry to come to the realization that there really is no answer when you inquire into the nature of the "I". But ultimately, even self-inquiry must become surrender in the end, as even Ramana recommended surrender over the practice as a mental juggle. 

The paradox of surrender is that as long as someone there is who wants to surrender, it cannot fully happen. All notions about life, world, God, awareness must go. The notion of "I-am" and existence as "I" must go, and they should never arise ever again. 

Love, surrender, devotion are all practices that build energetic intensity within the human vessel. 

[Truth Addict]

@FoxFoxFox

If the model wasn't the same as the real thing, how could it produce similar effects?

Could it all be just models, and nothing actually is real in the first place?

[FoxFoxFox]

@Truth Addict

Quote

Could it all be just models, and nothing actually is real in the first place?

That is still another model. This is the strange-loop of the mind. Step out of it completely. 

[Truth Addict]

8 minutes ago, FoxFoxFox said:

@Truth Addict

That is still another model. This is the strange-loop of the mind. Step out of it completely. 

And that also is still another model, if you don't follow what the model is pointing to in the actual world.

A model is a pointer, nothing more. And yet if you believe it, it will act almost like the real thing.

But that's irrelevant to the point I was trying to make.

My intention was to hint that everything is an illusion, both what we call 'real', and 'illusory'.

The bug is persistent everywhere, and nothing is real, though it looks and feels like it is.

If reality itself is a strange loop, where am I going to run to?

Edited April 1, 2019 by Truth Addict

[FoxFoxFox]

@Truth Addict

Who is the "I" who wants to run away? Inquire into it's nature and see if it's actually there.

[WelcometoReality]

45 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

My intention was to hint that everything is an illusion, both what we call 'real', and 'illusory'.

The bug is persistent everywhere, and nothing is real, though it looks and feels like it is.

That's interesting. How did you come to that conclusion?

[Truth Addict]

49 minutes ago, WelcometoReality said:

That's interesting. How did you come to that conclusion?

If I imagine a fearful situation, my body reacts accordingly.

If I imagine whatever thing which is not really there, my body reacts accordingly.

Sure not always the same, but that gives a hint. If something imaginary affects the body, doesn't that mean that the body itself is imaginary, or at least made of the same substance as illusion?

[Truth Addict]

1 hour ago, FoxFoxFox said:

@Truth Addict

Who is the "I" who wants to run away? Inquire into it's nature and see if it's actually there.

It's not there, but this is irrelevant.

(hint: I haven't experienced a high).

Edited April 1, 2019 by Truth Addict

[WelcometoReality]

36 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

If I imagine a fearful situation, my body reacts accordingly.

If I imagine whatever thing which is not really there, my body reacts accordingly.

Sure not always the same, but that gives a hint. If something imaginary affects the body, doesn't that mean that the body itself is imaginary, or at least made of the same substance as illusion?

Well it means that the body is conditioned to be fearful of that.

One body can be fearful of snakes while another becomes curious if it sees one.

But it can't really tell illusion from what's real. A thought of a snake can be just as fearful as a real snake if the thought is identified with.

[thesmileyone]

Describe the colour Red....

Edited April 1, 2019 by thesmileyone

[Truth Addict]

8 minutes ago, WelcometoReality said:

Well it means that the body is conditioned to be fearful of that.

That's a story.

The actual experience is fear, no matter the explanation.

How could thought possibly cause the experience to exist? I'm very suspicious that the whole reality is a thought (of a different kind).

Or you can say: it's all mind stuff, nothing actually exists but the mind itself.

[thesmileyone]

Fear is a concept produced by the mind, it is not real.

[WelcometoReality]

5 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

That's a story.

The actual experience is fear, no matter the explanation.

How could thought possibly cause the experience to exist? I'm very suspicious that the whole reality is a thought (of a different kind).

Or you can say: it's all mind stuff, nothing actually exists but the mind itself.

And yet you wonder why you are so numb. Isn't that a story aswell? It's all storytelling when it comes down to words. Some make more sense than others though. 

Thought is part of the experience is it not?

[Truth Addict]

1 minute ago, WelcometoReality said:

And yet you wonder why you are so numb. Isn't that a story aswell? It's all storytelling when it comes down to words. Some make more sense than others though. 

Thought is part of the experience is it not?

Of course, that's why I don't resist my thoughts.

[WelcometoReality]

10 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

Of course, that's why I don't resist my thoughts.

So why would the thoughts not cause other experiences to happen?

[Truth Addict]

17 minutes ago, WelcometoReality said:

So why would the thoughts not cause other experiences to happen?

I'm not sure I understand your question perfectly.

But to give a general answer, every answer to "why questions" is a story.

[WelcometoReality]

15 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

I'm not sure I understand your question perfectly.

But to give a general answer, every answer to "why questions" is a story.

So there is a thought of snakes and fear arises and the story is that the thought made the fear arise?

[thesmileyone]

I think the problem is people are trying to think their way to enlightenment.

What is the sound of one hand clapping?

Describe the colour Red?

If you can answer both of these, then maybe you are in luck at thinking your way to enlightenment.