If Everything is Perfect...

[tsuki]

12 hours ago, mandyjw said:

What am I missing? 

You still think that you are doing things because you're committed to love. Love is not a destination. It is a vehicle.

Abandoning love is not about embracing emptiness. They are not-two. Not separate. You still think of it. They form a paradox. A strangeloop.

Embrace the flow. Lose yourself in it.

Edited March 30, 2019 by tsuki

[FoxFoxFox]

3 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

@FoxFoxFox I see the truth in what you're saying, but I think we are arguing both sides of a paradox again.

Here's an example. 

Before I knew how to love unconditionally I went around the world and saw the world and other people as how it was for me and what they could do for me. I felt compassion and love but they were not unconditional. I would put myself in severe states of suffering by reading about wars in africa and thought that I should fight wrong in the world. 

After learning how to love without conditions I see love in people all the time and I see people who are cut off from the ego. I can't clearly receive love from someone who is cut of by ego but I can give love as long as I don't let my own ego be triggered.

There are these people who suddenly come up and are so striking to you...people you always overlooked before. It's like Jesus reincarnated in your elderly neighbor. Or the janitor you wave to everyday who never showers. And they just emit this unconditional love for everyone and when you meet it's like a knowing and a merging of souls. 

And it's like these people exist to show you how you're supposed to love. And you realize that all your close relationships have ego filters both in you and in them. And every time your ego is triggered you know it was a mirror and that it was always your ego that was triggered. And so we need other people to grow and they need us, because the entire world is becoming enlightened. It's not you. It was never you.

That's why you can't turn your back on people, or say that there are levels of awakening. It's all you. 

It's a paradox that we are separate but we are together. You must honor and live each side of the paradox to know the whole.

Again, and i really don't mean to say that your experience is not beautiful or grand or brimming with love. It certainly is and I have no right to demean it. This is a great path to actualization.

But we are talking about self-realization which is totally something else. You can be a murderer and be self-realized. You can be full of hate and be self-realized. It simply has nothing to do with relative experience. 

If you identify with experience as the doer, that is not self-realization. In self-realization even the notion that one is a watcher, or a witness, or a doer, or anything else doesn't arise. Nothing can be said about the experience in the truest sense of the phrase. 

[mandyjw]

3 minutes ago, FoxFoxFox said:

But we are talking about self-realization which is totally something else. You can be a murderer and be self-realized. You can be full of hate and be self-realized. It simply has nothing to do with relative experience.

That's not self-realization. That's selling your soul to the devil, (complete and total identification with self). That is not awakening, it is complete and total commitment to one side of the paradox. 

 

[tsuki]

@mandyjw Love is not a thought. It does not say what you should do and how to behave. You are it.

It is a feeling, as if you weighted 100 tonnes and it pulled you down right into the present moment.

That everything clicks together in magnificent orchestration of reality. Nothing is missing right now and you go along with it.

Self-realization is stable because there are no thoughts to doubt the silence. Doubt is dependent on time.

[FoxFoxFox]

7 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

That's not self-realization. That's selling your soul to the devil, (complete and total identification with self). That is not awakening, it is complete and total commitment to one side of the paradox. 

Again, these are just relative. We are not concerned with relatives. Self-realization is realizing the absolute. Which is to stop believing in the stories of the mind. Being an "I" is only one of the stories the mind tells. 

But let me tell you since you are so interested in love. Divine love is the same thing as God. You just have to be careful to not mistake love as affect with the real thing. 

[mandyjw]

19 minutes ago, FoxFoxFox said:

Again, these are just relative. We are not concerned with relatives. Self-realization is realizing the absolute. Which is to stop believing in the stories of the mind. Being an "I" is only one of the stories the mind tells. 

But let me tell you since you are so interested in love. Divine love is the same thing as God. You just have to be careful to not mistake love as affect with the real thing. 

 Affect with the real thing is the point of the illusion. great love cannot exist or know itself without duality and illusion. It's fucking beautiful. Step back into the illusion, forget who you are and remember. It's the dance of life. 

You preach, not, it, not it, not it.

You have a promise of future heaven and salvation. 

THIS IS IT.

Illusion and everything.

Surrender to the illusion. It's the last thing you won't surrender too. 

Edited March 30, 2019 by mandyjw

[mandyjw]

15 minutes ago, tsuki said:

@mandyjw Love is not a thought. It does not say what you should do and how to behave. You are it.

It is a feeling, as if you weighted 100 tonnes and it pulled you down right into the present moment.

That everything clicks together in magnificent orchestration of reality. Nothing is missing right now and you go along with it.

Self-realization is stable because there are no thoughts to doubt the silence. Doubt is dependent on time.

Love does not say how I should or should not behave but you're telling me how I should think about love. 

Do you want to have the upper hand when it comes to love? Do you not want to surrender to all of it's many forms to know it's depth fully?

You're like a kid at Easter who won't eat his Easter bunny because he thinks it's mean and wants to keep it forever. It's chocolate. It was made for you to eat. 

I have something you don't have. You have something I don't have. 

Edited March 30, 2019 by mandyjw

[tsuki]

@mandyjw @mandyjw You are the one that doubts Mandy.

2 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

Do you want to have the upper hand when it comes to love? Do you not want to surrender to all of it's many forms to know it's depth fully?

No. This is it.

4 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

I have something you don't have. You have something I don't have. 

There is no me and there is no you. You can't have it. There are no 'many paths'. All paths lead exactly to the same place. The absolute truth is true and was true the whole time unbeknownst to you. It changes nothing because it's already here. You cannot change it and there are no many facets to it.

9 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

Love does not say how I should or should not behave but you're telling me how I should think about love. 

Love is not a thought. It's their absence.

[mandyjw]

@tsuki If there's no me and you then how can we be having this conversation? I can have it because I do have it. 

You want me to ignore/dismiss duality and form yet live it, but you you ignore/dismiss grows stronger. You cannot ignore/dismiss a part and know the whole. 

 

[tsuki]

10 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

@tsuki You want me to ignore/dismiss duality and form yet live it, but you you ignore/dismiss grows stronger. You cannot ignore/dismiss a part and know the whole. 

It's a dismissal, but it retains your honesty and dignity. You still believe in something and it is ungrounded. Use your honesty as a compass. Find that thing and it will not feel like an insult to let go of that. It will feel like a joke you played on yourself. You will laugh and bear no grudge towards me.

Edited March 30, 2019 by tsuki

[mandyjw]

8 minutes ago, tsuki said:

It's a dismissal, but it retains your honesty and dignity. You still believe in something and it is ungrounded. Use your honesty as a compass. Find that thing and it will not feel like an insult to let go of that. It will feel like a joke you played on yourself. You will laugh and bear no grudge towards me.

There's no such thing as honesty and dignity. We all have ungrounded beliefs. It's ok. It's beautiful. I live the joke. I am the joke. 

[tsuki]

@mandyjw Then why do you still doubt?

[Truth Addict]

2 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

Somehow I'm receiving this thread as a rationalisation of love. That somehow someone should think about it, like when someone abuses a child it's out of love, but the child can't comprehend or accept that, and therefore the child won't be able to see the love.

But there's one step above, which is emotions and direct experience.

When a child is abused, he/she will at least feel pain and emotional reactions, right? Well, that's exactly what love is.

God loves us through emotions, every emotion is an incarnation of God's love. Every emotion is there to protect us, to keep us alive as egos.

Try to feel in your direct experience that everything you feel is there to keep you safe, notice how your mind and body feel and work when dealing with trauma or stress, it's all love, it was all love.

@mandyjw

[mandyjw]

5 minutes ago, tsuki said:

@mandyjw Then why do you still doubt?

Because there can be no existence of faith without the existence of doubt. 

Edited March 30, 2019 by mandyjw

[tsuki]

@mandyjw There you go again. You cling to paradox. You treat one end for the sake of another. Paradoxical mind is still a mind. Paradox is very close to the end of the path.

How about fractals? Forrests of mirrors? Rings any bells?

[mandyjw]

@Truth Addict It's a beautiful truth that we are always love and connected with love whether we know it or not. But love cannot be given or received until we are conscious of our connection with love. 

Love is the prize you were looking for out of this work. You had it all along but you didn't know it. So go explore it in all its forms. 

[Joseph Maynor]

11 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

@Truth Addict It's a beautiful truth that we are always love and connected with love whether we know it or not. But love cannot be given or received until we are conscious of our connection with love. 

Love is the prize you were looking for out of this work. You had it all along but you didn't know it. So go explore it in all its forms. 

Love is the prize in Enlightenment work.  It's hard to believe it until it happens to your life.  All of a sudden love is effortlessly the center of your life.  It's like the Mind gets traded in for the Heart.  In Chinese Philosophy they have a neat concept -- the Heart-Mind.  The Mind becomes the Heart-Mind with Enlightenment.  All of a sudden love is everywhere and the most important thing.  It's like the air you breathe.  And because you're tapping into that love, others now love you back because they're drawn to love too.  It can be a really odd thing to have new people suddenly attracted to you who want to spend time with you.  

Edited March 30, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[mandyjw]

4 minutes ago, tsuki said:

@mandyjw There you go again. You cling to paradox. You treat one end for the sake of another. Paradoxical mind is still a mind. Paradox is very close to the end of the path.

How about fractals? Forrests of mirrors? Rings any bells?

I try not to cling. But I'm holding on to it until it's no longer useful. 

Fractals are cool.

So is the finite. 

[FoxFoxFox]

1 hour ago, mandyjw said:

 Affect with the real thing is the point of the illusion. great love cannot exist or know itself without duality and illusion. It's fucking beautiful. Step back into the illusion, forget who you are and remember. It's the dance of life. 

You preach, not, it, not it, not it.

You have a promise of future heaven and salvation. 

THIS IS IT.

Illusion and everything.

Surrender to the illusion. It's the last thing you won't surrender too. 

Sorry, but no. Absolute love knows itself without an object through lovebliss. Evidence for that is its presence when the mind is under anesthesia. 

I'm not saying that your experience of love, whether affect or not, is not God. I'm saying, it has nothing to do with self-realization. 

Also, I never said self-realization will give you heaven and salvation. That's your projection. 

I know you cannot fathom what i mean when i say you are literally talking to God which is yourself, but hey. 

Edited March 30, 2019 by FoxFoxFox

[Forestluv]

3 hours ago, FoxFoxFox said:

@Serotoninluv Sorry, no. You are trying to find something that isn't there. You can't infer someone's degree of understanding from writing. To me all these are in the relative. Mind games, at best intended to hint people towards the right direction. I am sympathetic to the fact that different people have different realities, but I simply don't operate from the relativity of dimensions anymore. 

You keep saying “X is Y” and unaware that “X is X”.

You are in relative dimension that you don’t recognize because it appears different from your previous relative dimension that you evolved out of.

You are somewhere, yet think you are nowhere.