The Way Leo Often Talks About God/Absolute

[now is forever]

an egg is an egg because it is an egg if it wasn’t an egg it would be chocolate. but then a bunny would bring it at easter.

[Preetom]

@Aakash @Highest @now is forever

The way I've taken it as a hypothesis is that, forms are just an appearance. But the essence or substance of form is nothingness.

Just like a human body is made of blood, water, carbon and other substances but it appears as a body. We can reduce everything like this. Nothingness/enlightenment is the ultimate reduction. You cannot go any behind than that.

The essence of a form is nothingness and ONLY nothingness, so much so that it really doesn't matter if there is an appearance of form in the first place or not. Nothing real or essential comes or goes when a form comes or goes.

It's like a video game stored in the computer. The essence or reality of that video game is the 10 GB raw data. But it appears as a stunning video game that looks nothing like ''10 GB data''. Also notice that nothing essential or substantially matters whether that video game is ever played or not or how many times it is played. The reality or essence of that 10 GB data remains ever the same.

I'm bringing this up because few days ago after waking up in the morning, I viscerally felt that the waking state is nothing but the deep sleep; it only 'looks' different now.

[Leo Gura]

51 minutes ago, Preetom said:

Could you elaborate a bit more on this?
Do you mean that Reality is nothing, but it appears as something? Thus the appearance is NEVER the Reality.

If form/illusion/appearance 'exists', while God/nothing is the only existence; doesn't that mean that God cannot BE without a form? If that is the case, then what happens in deep sleep? Is deep sleep devoid of existence?

What you must realize is this:

Something = Nothing

Infinity = Zero

Form = Formlessness

Illusion = Reality

This is one of the deepest awakenings you can have. You will not understand this logically. Only at the moment of awakening.

Asking if God cannot be without form assumes that form and formless are two, but they are in fact one.

God is simultaneously without form (the Godhead) and all form which has ever occurred anywhere. It is both! It is ALL!

The ultimate realization of nonduality is the unification of form and formlessness, so you see them as one. In this way, the everyday material world becomes nothing, like a divine hologram. Your body starts to feel light, like it is a ghost, like you are etherial.

Etherial = ether = 5th element = nothingness = consciousness = love = God

Ta-da!

[Highest]

5 minutes ago, Preetom said:

@Aakash @Highest @now is forever

 

The essence of a form is nothingness and ONLY nothingness, so much so that it really doesn't matter if there is an appearance of form in the first place or not.

Yes true ?

[now is forever]

4 minutes ago, Aakash said:

is this not the same thing ? form is nothing and meaning and meaningless 

no, form is shaped by nothing, form is an illusion and it is not. form exists in a relationship with meaning and meaninglessness.

meaning=nothingness and form are interconnected in an endless conversation.

[Highest]

18 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The ultimate realization of nonduality is the unification of form and formlessness, so you see them as one.

That's cool coming from you because I have become conscious that form and formlessnesss are one and the same thing: God. There is only God, so there can be only God whatever it is.

[Mu_]

17 minutes ago, Preetom said:

@Aakash @Highest @now is forever

The way I've taken it as a hypothesis is that, forms are just an appearance. But the essence or substance of form is nothingness.

Just like a human body is made of blood, water, carbon and other substances but it appears as a body. We can reduce everything like this. Nothingness/enlightenment is the ultimate reduction. You cannot go any behind than that.

The essence of a form is nothingness and ONLY nothingness, so much so that it really doesn't matter if there is an appearance of form in the first place or not. Nothing real or essential comes or goes when a form comes or goes.

It's like a video game stored in the computer. The essence or reality of that video game is the 10 GB raw data. But it appears as a stunning video game that looks nothing like ''10 GB data''. Also notice that nothing essential or substantially matters whether that video game is ever played or not or how many times it is played. The reality or essence of that 10 GB data remains ever the same.

I'm bringing this up because few days ago after waking up in the morning, I viscerally felt that the waking state is nothing but the deep sleep; it only 'looks' different now.

Expanding also on what Leo just said.  You may be getting hung up on the root of reductionism view.  When a human often uses reductionism to deduce down to its root what takes place then is generally a statement that such thing is it’s essense/truth/what’s only real. However what is revealed in no dual realization is that what you reduce to is an ‘all’. This can click into a understandin  that what was reduced before reduction and what was found after reduction  is understood as the same ‘all’ at all moments.  This is, form is emptiness and emptiness is form.   But even here emptiness is often interpreted as a literal empty which it’s not and form is what said human takes to be their current experience which it partially/totally is, and is included in infinitys all, but is not solely it. 

[thesmileyone]

Quote

Asking if God cannot be without form assumes that form and formless are two, but they are in fact one.

It is correct that they are one, yet form (the mind) cannot know formlessness (Godhead) like formlessness (Godhead) can know form (the mind).

Which is why

 

Quote

You will not understand this logically. Only at the moment of awakening.

Is true, because logic = that of the mind, and formlessness, whilst it can know mind because mind is within it, is not mind, because mind is of form.

It's heirarchal!

Edited March 29, 2019 by thesmileyone

[Joseph Maynor]

44 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

What you must realize is this:

Something = Nothing

Infinity = Zero

Form = Formlessness

Illusion = Reality

This is one of the deepest awakenings you can have. You will not understand this logically. Only at the moment of awakening.

Asking if God cannot be without form assumes that form and formless are two, but they are in fact one.

God is simultaneously without form (the Godhead) and all form which has ever occurred anywhere. It is both! It is ALL!

The ultimate realization of nonduality is the unification of form and formlessness, so you see them as one. In this way, the everyday material world becomes nothing, like a divine hologram. Your body starts to feel light, like it is a ghost, like you are etherial.

Etherial = ether = 5th element = nothingness = consciousness = love = God

Ta-da!

This looks like you're solving some kind of math problem Leo.  Just look at the feel and vibe of what you're doing.  I wanna write Q.E.D. after your "proof".  I studied Engineering too for a while man -- I took all those math classes.  Y'aint gonna prove being with no syllogism.  Somehow you seem very trapped in a logical mind Leo.  It's almost like you're experiencing a huge Ego-Backlash but don't realize it yet.  It's like your Ego is saying, "f*ck you, I ain't going nowhere."  That's ironic because I know you made the below video railing on the Rationalist Paradigm.  This one:

And I almost feel you kinda forgot about this video, where I thought you were on the right track:

 

Edited March 29, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[Highest]

@thesmileyone The mind is also formless. It's not part of the brain. The brain is of course also the formless, only appears as form. Ultimately both form and formlessness is God. The brain and mind is none but God.

There is only God who includes everything: form and formlessness, illusion and actuality, existence and reality. Everything. All of this is God. One can only become God or become conscious and aware of God.

[now is forever]

@Joseph Maynor try to see this “=“ as a symbol of “it is and it is not” - it’s not a math problem it is an allegory.

[Joseph Maynor]

18 minutes ago, now is forever said:

@Joseph Maynor try to see this “=“ as a symbol of “it is and it is not” - it’s not a math problem it is an allegory.

Yeah, but I don't really see Leo ever think in terms of paradox.  It's always his very linear way of presenting his beliefs.  He thinks he has very specific linear truths about reality.  Hold on, I wrote down a couple of things that Leo actually wrote:

"The most amazing thing about reality is that it is intelligible.  Nothing is arbitrary.  Human logic is a tiny splinter off God's logic.  It's not just patterns and survival.  I'm talking about understanding the metaphysical structure of reality and why it is the way it is.  There is no accident or randomness to it.  It has a logos." -- Leo Gura

"Things are just as they are.  They are a very specific way, a very deliberate and intelligent way.  Everything is intelligible.  It is possible to become conscious of why every hair on your arm exists exactly as it does and not otherwise.  It is possible to understand why the whole universe exists.  Profound awakening required of course.  This is no ordinary reason.  You must penetrate the very structure of God.  It has a logic to it."  -- Leo Gura

There's no paradox in any of this.  This is "I know what's what and I can tell it to you very clearly in linear statements."  This is the kind of knowledge that you could write a textbook on and say, this is the "one right answer", as if Enlightenment is like Chemistry or something.

Edited March 29, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[Ethankahn]

22 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

This looks like you're solving some kind of math problem Leo.  Just look at the feel and vibe of what you're doing.  I wanna write Q.E.D. after your "proof".  I studied Engineering too for a while man -- I took all those math classes.  Y'aint gonna prove being with no syllogism.  Somehow you seem very trapped in a logical mind Leo.  It's almost like you're experiencing a huge Ego-Backlash but don't realize it yet.  It's like your Ego is saying, "f*ck you, I ain't going nowhere."  That's ironic because I know you made the below video railing on the Rationalist Paradigm.  This one:

And I almost feel you kinda forgot about this video, where I thought you were on the right track:

 

It’s possible to tie logic into Truth. Nonduality leaves nothing out, including logic. It’s just that the logic will be a more total sense rather than just human  common sense

[Joseph Maynor]

15 minutes ago, Ethankahn said:

It’s possible to tie logic into Truth. Nonduality leaves nothing out, including logic. It’s just that the logic will be a more total sense rather than just human  common sense

You and Leo seem to share a similar view about Enlightenment, at least on that point.

Edited March 29, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[Ethankahn]

@Joseph Maynor Yes that’s interesting. I am curious though. I know, with your perspective, you’re always coming from this state of pure empty Awareness. Would you be against calling that a form of understanding?

[Joseph Maynor]

4 minutes ago, Ethankahn said:

@Joseph Maynor Yes that’s interesting. I am curious though. I know, with your perspective, you’re always coming from this state of pure empty Awareness. Would you be against calling that a form of understanding?

I resonate with more of a Zen approach which is a transcendence of the Mind-Matrix.  In Zen, clinging to metaphysics is looked at as a trap.  Leo is very into clinging to metaphysics.  He thinks reality has a logos to it.  That's metaphysics.  Thinking of reality as a mind is metaphysics.  In Zen, that is looked at as delusion -- as being trapped in the Mind-Matrix.

Edited March 29, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[Ethankahn]

3 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

I resonate more with a Zen approach which is a transcendence of the Mind.

Gotcha. So I see why logic doesn’t fit into your “framework.” You’re referring to a groundless state that can never be fully cognized (cause it’s groundless). 

Edited March 29, 2019 by Ethankahn

[Joseph Maynor]

1 minute ago, Ethankahn said:

Gotcha. So I see why logic doesn’t fit into your “framework.” You’re referring to a groundless state that can never be fully cognized. 

I wouldn't even call it a state.  It's just that I can see where the Mind interferes in things.  I'm hypersensitive to the influence of the Mind.

[now is forever]

33 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

There's no paradox in any of this.  This is "I know what's what and I can tell it to you very clearly in linear statements."  This is the kind of knowledge that you could write a textbook on and say, this is the "one right answer", as if Enlightenment is like Chemistry or something.

yeah it is but you call it alchemy it is the all-chemy the chemistry of the all.

 

Edited March 30, 2019 by now is forever
maybe it’s good to know that the all means the universe in german

[Ethankahn]

@Joseph Maynor Understandable. Nobody really feels inclined to call emptiness or groundlessness a state. As for me, rather than saying Infinity is a state, I say it’s State itself (because that includes all states within it). There’s a nice Zen riddle ? “The only “state” that is no particular state is State itself” or “The only “form” that has no particular form is Form itself”