The Way Leo Often Talks About God/Absolute

[Preetom]

First of all, none of it is intended to disrespect Leo or anyone. Just sharing my own view.

The way Leo talks about the Absolute- I mean things like infinity, god, how a chair is infinite, how the 20 years old memory still existing now, how his human body is literally God's body etc and etc; don't these declarations subtly imply the existence of an independent universe with strict laws and regulations out of which nothing exist?

But is that really our experience? Is there really such an ultimate universe or is the universe something seen while we are in the waking state for 16-17 hours a day, that too only 60-70 years we are alive? Aren't all our ideas, concepts and reasoning itself depended on the state we are in? Our waking state logic/reasoning and the dream state logic/reasoning are oceans apart.

Why all this struggle and hiccups to explain all of Reality in terms of only this petty waking state we are in? This line of expression easily leads one to fantastical thinking and more imagination. There is a saying that God's language is silence and the rest is poor translation.

Leo is well aware that Truth cannot be communicated. But why such conviction behind the words and taking them dead seriously?

The talking mind is such a pernicious bitch. At first, it won't shut up and thus prevent the silent Truth to be realized. Then even after a glimpse of Truth happens, it won't shut up praising the Lord's glory in it's same old deluded expressions and imaginations  

Help me out of this friends 

Edited March 29, 2019 by Preetom

[Preetom]

Is this a coincidence or what? @SoonHei posted this in the forum simultaneously

This is exactly the issue I'm questioning. Trying so hard to explain everything in the waking state language with so much conviction leads to this. One imaginary explanation opens up 10 more imaginary questions and scenarios.

Now all of a sudden, Soonhei is something real and all it's fantasies now have to be validated in the light of Truth. It's so easy to forget that Soonhei is an arbitrary imagination based on the 16 hours of waking state experience. Even this idea of a day consisting of 24 hour where Soonhei is awake for several hours in a solid universe with all it's ideas about god, time, causality etc is part of the waking state limited viewpoint.

@Soonhei, nothing against you brother. Just took your post as a support to mine. Hope you don't mind  

 

[SoonHei]

@Preetom hey

absolutely not. i don't mind at all. and yeah. pretty cool you posted similar lines too

 

i mean. i get all that is part of knowledge/dream... and then the absolute itself is just silence/emptiness...

but still, there are deeper awakenings... and potential masters out there who haven't realized the deeper potential as leo has... i guess i can get that... in a way...?

[Preetom]

@SoonHei

Quote

"When you discover Stillness in the movement, Unchanging within the changing and the Silence within the noise, then you have found your eternal home."

 

[SoonHei]

@Preetom bless up

indeed.

i see that as a nice recliner seat in which you dont strain your back and can sit back and watch the movie of Life play out eternally. (Become Life itself)

1 hour ago, Preetom said:

But is that really our experience? Is there really such an ultimate universe or is the universe something seen while we are in the waking state for 16-17 hours day, that too only 60-70 years we are alive? Aren't all our ideas, concepts and reasoning itself depended on the state we are in? Our waking state logic/reasoning and the dream state logic/reasoning are oceans apart.

i guess on this point... maybe Leo talking about it does pertain to the waking state and all... because that too is part of the ONE infinite fractal...

 

i recall Leo saying once in a video that reality/god is INFINITE in INFINITE DIMENSIONS - i think that best captures it all.

 

anyhow... i can only really speculate until i get my own fair share of these awakenings... which as per leo will seem complete and total but there is always a deeper layer to this groundless infinite realm... 

 

also. i wonder what rupert spira or fred davis for example understands or would say about what Leo talks about here

someone suggested in the other thread that Leo needs to have a sit down and talk with one of these masters, that would be pretty sick (yes, my ego needs some entertainment here - proclaimed the ego, talking about itself in 3rd person) 

[Mu_]

Hey preterm and soonhei. I hear where your coming from and my sense is your coming from an already assumed position of how reality ultimately is in which Leo’s seems like he’s breaking your reality rule that silence is as far is ultimate reality is. 

 

My suspicion is neither of you have seen that what you say is a fictiscios Leo or soonhei is not seperate from god/itself/silence and guess what Leo/god talks and has experiences in which truth can be learned and understood. Same with soonhei. 

[Preetom]

3 minutes ago, SoonHei said:

also. i wonder what rupert spira or fred davis for example understands or would say about what Leo talks about here

Well, Rupert Spira has a very different notion of 'infinity'. 

While, Leo (and almost everyone else) visualizes and tries to express Infinity as something extending forever in all dimension; Rupert defines Infinity as something that has absolutely no dimension at all. Because having a dimension itself would be a limit. It immediately kills all the imaginations of the mind.

Even though it sounds contradictory but I think it eventually goes full circle to point to nothing is everything, everything is nothing sorta deal.

Also regarding the validity of 5-meo, I think Rupert's usual response would be that they are as valuable as mantra meditation or any other activity/substance. Might be helpful for a some people to see through their delusion and still the mind, but not necessary to be what one really is.

[Mu_]

5 minutes ago, Preetom said:

Well, Rupert Spira has a very different notion of 'infinity'. 

While, Leo (and almost everyone else) visualizes and tries to express Infinity as something extending forever in all dimension; Rupert defines Infinity as something that has absolutely no dimension at all. Because having a dimension itself would be a limit. It immediately kills all the imaginations of the mind.

Even though it sounds contradictory but I think it eventually goes full circle to point to nothing is everything, everything is nothing sorta deal.

Also regarding the validity of 5-meo, I think Rupert's usual response would be that they are as valuable as mantra meditation or any other activity/substance. Might be helpful for a some people to see through their delusion and still the mind, but not necessary to be what one really is.

Can you let in both to be true and leave room for  sooooooooooooooooooooo much more    I believe Leo was strongly eluding to this when he was explaing that each realization he had was more encompassing then the next. This was and has been my experience as well. Your still on the truth of a realization about silence and the ineffability of it. But there’s more and more 

Edited March 29, 2019 by Mu_

[Preetom]

@Mu_

you are right. I have realized nothing

[FoxFoxFox]

@Preetom This is what I want to tell you specifically. In your signature you progressed from Gross I to I am then to the subtle I right? I assume that by "I" you mean to say that you believe you are an "I". That there is a sense within you that says you are someone or something. A being, even if has no body. Well what I told you earlier that you should step into the void is to dis-identify even with that subtlest of feelings of being a someone. There should never be any thought or feeling of being a someone arise within you. That is self-realization. 

Apologies if I misunderstand your situation. 

[Preetom]

8 minutes ago, FoxFoxFox said:

@Preetom This is what I want to tell you specifically. In your signature you progressed from Gross I to I am then to the subtle I right? I assume that by "I" you mean to say that you believe you are an "I". That there is a sense within you that says you are someone or something. A being, even if has no body. Well what I told you earlier that you should step into the void is to dis-identify even with that subtlest of feelings of being a someone. There should never be any thought or feeling of being a someone arise within you. That is self-realization. 

Apologies if I misunderstand your situation. 

No you haven't misunderstood. And guess what, that's exactly what I am doing. Staying with the 'I' until it vanishes. Thanks.

But I don't understand the void. Neither in imagination nor in experience. What I find myself in , is that all pointers break down.

Step into the void? Where is that direction? Every single minute movement is cognized as more 'objects'. But forgetfulness comes back in very quickly which I guess I need to cure through persistence and stillness 

Edited March 29, 2019 by Preetom

[FoxFoxFox]

@Preetom Well the thing is staying with the 'I' is not gonna make it vanish. It actually reinforces it because you are feeding it energy by validating its existence. You have to question it and keep showing yourself that you can't find it anywhere. 

The void, along with bliss are facets of the Self. They are its inherent qualities we could say. But most people will only get the void first. It's the recognition that nothing has an qualities of by itself. For example, look at a flower. Realize that all attributes of this flower are given to it by the mind. For example you could say it's a beautiful, red flower. But neither of those descriptions are actually properties of the flower, right? They are projections. If you continue exploring in that direction you realize that the world suddenly vanishes. Everything literally becomes one, because no distinctions are being projected. Moreover, the fact that you can even project things shows you that all these properties are actually properties of you. For example, beauty is not really a property of the flower, it's really YOUR beauty that gets projected. It's a recognition. It also continues to evolve and get deeper and deeper. That is why i sometimes talk about stages of enlightenment because the experience gets richer and richer. 

Don't get caught up in mind games. it really doesn't matter how you phrase sentences, or even if you use the first person nominative. These are all relative stuff. Try and recognize the void. 

[SoonHei]

@Mu_ hmmm

thank you . yeah i guess that is correct, i havent directly seen/experieinced...

 

i wouldn't say that leo is changing what i know to be of reality. infact i am very much at ease and peace with what leo is saying.. it's just that to me, the whole of the path to finding yourself constitute of what my signature says. finding that eternal home... and then from there on end, "you" just live out life eternally from there... and sure. in living of that eternal life, there is no end to knowldge. you can go on keep on getting new info and learning 

but just some understanding about the "physcial structure" or construct of reality was different (or seemed different to me in how he was saying it) vs what i have heard / thought of it to be before... in that there are infinte possiblities all realized.. such as a reality where a soonhei has 10 legs for example... (nothing limiting reality from being anything it can be) and sure... that might still exist.. and what leo was saying wasn't negating that... but maybe i understood it wrong.. i am trying to understand this from the mind of course so there's that.

 

but what he said about what GOD would do given he could do anything without limit did make sense. that God would create the absolute perfrect infinte fractal... all willed into existence...

the ego lives thru and goes thru it frame by frame (only in the now/present moment) but GOD's view is the whole deal / film reel actualized/realized at once.

[Highest]

25 minutes ago, FoxFoxFox said:

@Preetom This is what I want to tell you specifically. In your signature you progressed from Gross I to I am then to the subtle I right? I assume that by "I" you mean to say that you believe you are an "I". That there is a sense within you that says you are someone or something. A being, even if has no body. Well what I told you earlier that you should step into the void is to dis-identify even with that subtlest of feelings of being a someone. There should never be any thought or feeling of being a someone arise within you. That is self-realization. 

Apologies if I misunderstand your situation. 

Someone? Indeed, no such thing.  I and everything is what I am conscious of: the non-dual aka God. God is Infinite due, so a someone is included as God. That (God) which I am conscious of is Apsolute Infinity and Apsolute Infinity is That which I am conscious of. It cannot be otherwise. I realized this sober like 2 hours ago while walking down a street.

[FoxFoxFox]

@Highest Just to clarify, there shouldn't even be the thought of "I am conscious", not of "I" nor of anything else. Literally. It's void - empty. No mind whatsoever. No realizations because that implies someone who is realizing - and that's duality. I understand the English language produces a lot of "I"s but it's worth mentioning  

[Preetom]

4 minutes ago, FoxFoxFox said:

 But most people will only get the void first. It's the recognition that nothing has an qualities of by itself. For example, look at a flower. Realize that all attributes of this flower are given to it by the mind. For example you could say it's a beautiful, red flower. But neither of those descriptions are actually properties of the flower, right? They are projections. If you continue exploring in that direction you realize that the world suddenly vanishes. Everything literally becomes one, because no distinctions are being projected.

I've already seen this clearly and in fact return to this understanding within few minutes of being still and self inquiring. All experience and knowledge are 2nd hand objects. None of them has the awareness to be aware of 'I'. All objective experience however subtle or gross, are found to be dead and insentient if scrutinized. They only seem to be so alive, dynamic and convincing but look at them and poof they go.

10 minutes ago, FoxFoxFox said:

@Preetom Well the thing is staying with the 'I' is not gonna make it vanish. It actually reinforces it because you are feeding it energy by validating its existence. You have to question it and keep showing yourself that you can't find it anywhere. 

I humbly disagree with this part. The 'I' is not the issue here. The issue is the unquestioned, false notions and underlying beliefs about this 'I'.

If I keep on focusing on an object like a located sensation in the chest or head as the 'I', that indeed is going to reinforce the notion that 'I' is located in the body and has limited qualities. That's why typical mindfulness meditation where you are ''sitting at the back as a separate subject to know all other thoughts and emotions''- this actually reinforces the belief in the separate self.

Staying with the 'I' is only valid after it is not identified/stuck with any objects. Here the 'I' becomes the pure light of knowing with which all experiences are known but which itself is not an experience. This constant abidance of this ''knowing presence'' or 'I' cures all the deluded notions like ''I am a separate self in the body, consciousness is generated in the brain, there is a world outside of me, I become unconscious in deep sleep, all my thoughts and beliefs are true and real etc''.

I'll quote Maharaj

''Wrong knowledge about the I AM is bondage, right knowledge about I AM is liberation''

And here it's obvious that he isn't referring to mere intellectual knowledge but non-verbal, direct, pure being knowledge that results from constantly being with the I AM persistently without giving in to thoughts and fantasies

[Preetom]

5 minutes ago, FoxFoxFox said:

@Highest Just to clarify, there shouldn't even be the thought of "I am conscious", not of "I" nor of anything else. Literally. It's void - empty. No mind whatsoever. No realizations because that implies someone who is realizing - and that's duality. I understand the English language produces a lot of "I"s but it's worth mentioning  

I've found this true in my experience. Even ''I am aware'' is a thought. The real 'I' or light of pure knowing is even beyond that. That thought doesn't arise when self-inquiry really sinks in.

It's only after coming out of it and intellectualizing it from memory does the thought ''I am aware'' arise.

[FoxFoxFox]

@Preetom Well let me say this then: is there any identification? It should be really easy to answer. Like today people kept calling "my" name but I didn't respond because I didn't recognize at as my own.

A total absence of identification. 

If you believe in an "I" that is not localized, you are still identifying with that I.

I or "I am" is not the end of the search. Void is. 

You want to merge with pure being, not subtly objectify it as an "I".

[Highest]

5 minutes ago, FoxFoxFox said:

@Highest Just to clarify, there shouldn't even be the thought of "I am conscious", not of "I" nor of anything else. Literally. It's void - empty. No mind whatsoever. No realizations because that implies someone who is realizing - and that's duality. I understand the English language produces a lot of "I"s but it's worth mentioning  

??

I have been in actual emptiness. There is no" I". It's just conscious conscious of itself as God.

[Jkris]

@Preetom ?????? This i can understand.