Will Science ever prove Non-Duality?

[ajasatya]

11 hours ago, fridjonk said:

@ajasatya  How do you define "materialism" ?

i define materialism as the perspective in which we make "naive" assumptions and simplifications of Reality in order to be able to model it with a certain degree of accuracy. modeling chemical reactions and physics equations are within the materialist perspective. and when you drive an electric car, program a cluster of computers, launch satellites on space, go through a critical surgery and come out alive or just use an online platform like actualized.org, it becomes clear that engineering works.

this is where lay people get confused about science. they think that the current (most accurate) framework to model Reality is a "real thing". but scientists - those who come up with such models - are aware that those are just abstractions of the mind. this video shows what i mean.

[Aakash]

i think leo is right with this one, science can only accept non duality if they take the personal experiences of people as their subjective measurement and not physical materialist things. 

[Leo Gura]

Materialism is the belief in an external physical world which exists independent of the human mind. And it's the belief that this belief is not a belief but reality. It is the belief that consciousness is made out of material objects like neurons or brains. It is also the belief that the universe is dumb and inanimate.

Models of reality are not the problem. The problem is that groundless metaphysical assumptions are rampant throughout science but at the same time materialist science poo-poos metaphysics, as if metaphysics is bullshit, but without any awareness that science is full of implicit materialist metaphysics for which there never was any scientific evidence.

Another big problem is that scientists are NOT aware that their models are just abstractions. Serious scientists like Max Tegmark or Sean Carroll literally believe that the universe is mathematics or literally a quantum field equation. It's so ridiculous it's tragic.

[ajasatya]

10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Serious scientists like Max Tegmark or Sean Carroll

never heard of those. my frame of reference for science is built upon a mindset that's closer to how einstein and tesla used to think. that's how i think about science and that's how i influence the scientific community to evolve. when it comes down to deep understanding and questioning, everything else in the domain of science looks like child's play to me... just more models.

also, bashing the current mainstream scientific mindset is highly counterproductive. it sounds arrogant and immature... turning this into an ideology war makes things worse. simply practicing and promoting a new way to approach scientific foundations has been way more productive as far as my experience goes. keep in mind that human beings that are willing (and brave enough) to question everything are extremely rare. how much % of people on this planet have access to clean information about psychedelics?

check out the humble attitude of this guy called dean radin. maybe you're familiar with his stuff.

 

[Leo Gura]

@ajasatya I am familiar with his stuff. Dean Radin would be dismissed and rejected by most scientists. They would call him a kook, not a scientist. His paranormal research is rejected across the board by serious scientists. Not because he is wrong but because they are dogmatic materialists.

People hold science in way too high a regard. So I think some bashing is a nice counter to that. A culture war is needed here to some degree. Right now people take science way too much on faith. It's part of the Orange stage.

What's really needed is a full, methodical deconstruction of science, which I am in the process of writing.

Obviously you are more conscious than the typical scientist because you did consciousness work. Very, very few scientists are as wise as Einstein or Tesla. You picked two of the best of all time. That's unfair. I am talking more about your run of the mill scientists. Those who poo-poo metaphysical inquiry.

Science advances and evolves precisely through the critiques which I am verbalizing. This is true scientific method happening right here, right now in this thread! We are pointing out it's limitations so that it can become more pure. But as always, scientists hate it when you point out the impurities of science. They go into defense mode. It's an ego thing. They are committed to the survival of science, which ironically entrenches the impurities. Such is how all corruption works. The whistleblower gets demonized. I am the whistleblower. So scientists will demonize me.

See, science is a collective ego. That's a profound insight. Go check out my Collective Ego episode and connect the dots. Science is not yet conscious enough to realize that it is a collective ego and all the ramifications this has. So we must make science aware of this to evolve it to the next level.

[tedens]

30 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

People hold science in way too high a regard. So I think some bashing is a nice counter to that. 

A culture war is needed here to some degree. 

What's really needed is a full, methodical deconstruction of science,...

It really must happen some day.

Revolutions are inscribed in evolution.

Edited April 1, 2019 by tedens

[ajasatya]

14 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

His paranormal research is rejected across the board by serious scientists

not sure what your "serious" means. famous? university professors?

15 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

A culture war is needed here to some degree

this is where we disagree. the movement already has an unstoppable momentum. "serious" scientists won't be able to do anything about it. human culture will transform faster as more people are falling in existential crisis. it's a natural flow. of course you can scream and say "my scream is part of the natural flow". but you can also work quietly and peacefully and say "my calmness is part of the flow". up to existence!

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, ajasatya said:

not sure what your "serious" means. famous? university professors?

Well-respected ones. Ones who people look up to as experts. The Popes of the science world.

Quote

this is where we disagree. the movement already has an unstoppable momentum. "serious" scientists won't be able to do anything about it. human culture will transform faster as more people are falling in existential crisis. it's a natural flow. of course you can scream and say "my scream is part of the natural flow". but you can also work quietly and peacefully and say "my calmness is part of the flow". up to existence!

I'm just saying a deconstruction is necessary along the veins of what Thomas Kuhn's or Paul Feyerbend's work did in the 20th century for science. More of that is needed. It does not have to be screaming rant. Deconstruction can be calm. Or not. Both can be useful.

[ajasatya]

34 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

See, science is a collective ego. That's a profound insight.

here's another profound insight: science is a phenomenon of the universe trying to understand what it is. it's the other side of the same coin that you flipped on your collective ego episode.

[fridjonk]

@ajasatya   

 

This is one of the best videos you could watch on this, i suggest you meditate during this video and really try to grasp what is being said. There are few people that go as well into detail as Spira and Leo. 

[ajasatya]

27 minutes ago, fridjonk said:

This is one of the best videos you could watch on this, i suggest you meditate during this video and really try to grasp what is being said

yeah i've been there on the other extreme. "there is no world out there" and its variations are very familiar to me. if you ask me, my most sincere answer is i don't know. to me, existence is so absurd that "there is a world out there" and "there is no world out there" can be both true at the same time. or what if it's something in the middle? something we can't grasp with the mind?

i don't discredit leo, spira or any other pointer because i've had a heavy dosage of those profound mystical experiences myself. i'm just saying that we need a certain amount of maturity before we can help leverage mankind's level of awareness through our words and works. if you want to aim high and reach as many people as possible, then polish your language... "what did he say? 'poo-poos'? 'bullshit'? doesn't sound like a grown man to me"

it's not the content. it's the attitude!

[tsuki]

First of all, nonduality is unprovable. Period.

If science were to realize nonduality, it would first have to become self-conscious.
This self-consciousness, would be a branch of science that studies science as a whole.
This meta-science would have to create a theory of science. Its centralized identity.
Then, newly-created branches would have to conform to this identity until stagnation.
Then, a question would arise - is science that studies itself conforming to the identity that it created?
After a long turmoil - it would have to admit that science does not exist and it has never existed to begin with.

[fridjonk]

@ajasatya  Yes you are right, but Leo really isn't out here trying to leverage mankind's level of awareness. He's interested in going as deep as possible and telling the truth like it is with no filter, weather people like it or not, similar to J. Krishnamurti. It's more so Spira, Tolle, Watts, Mooji, Sadhguru etc... that are to spread it wide as possible within peoples limited understanding, and thus heightening their level of awareness. 

[ajasatya]

11 minutes ago, fridjonk said:

but Leo really isn't out here trying to leverage mankind's level of awareness.

it doesn't match what he says...

[John Iverson]

On 3/29/2019 at 9:26 PM, SQAAD said:

Science is the new religion of the modern world. When i talk about non-duality to my friends they get suspicious and almost everyone comes w/ this silly objection : "If non-duality was true science would know about it by now."

Well personally i don't buy that BUT still my knowledge of how science works and the limits of science is very narrow so i can't provide a good counter-arguement most of the time.

Will science ever prove non-duality? And why hasn't it been "proven" so far?  I mean scientist still do their science using first person experience.  

What do you call Quantumn Mechanics? Haha!

[fridjonk]

@ajasatya Well you know what i mean. He has hit a such depth that its incomprehensible for most people to get anyway. 

[UDT]

On 4/1/2019 at 0:20 PM, Leo Gura said:

What's really needed is a full, methodical deconstruction of science, which I am in the process of writing.

That´s important. 

I wonder if heaven is when you elevate consciousness of the universe so when you leave here you go to a time and place in which enlightenment is omniscient, its a world in which we got it, fixed it and live in harmony. I think thats the only possible end-game

[Leo Gura]

On 4/1/2019 at 3:56 AM, ajasatya said:

here's another profound insight: science is a phenomenon of the universe trying to understand what it is. it's the other side of the same coin that you flipped on your collective ego episode.

Of course!

What is science? is a very profound question. I highly recommend everyone spend a few years or decades contemplating it, as I have.

[Leo Gura]

On 4/1/2019 at 3:41 PM, fridjonk said:

@ajasatya  Yes you are right, but Leo really isn't out here trying to leverage mankind's level of awareness. He's interested in going as deep as possible and telling the truth like it is with no filter, weather people like it or not, similar to J. Krishnamurti. It's more so Spira, Tolle, Watts, Mooji, Sadhguru etc... that are to spread it wide as possible within peoples limited understanding, and thus heightening their level of awareness. 

I try to go wide and teach to ordinary people. I don't see myself as the deepest. I see myself as a bridge-builder, helping people to interconnect various parts of reality. At least that's my role for now. It might change in the future.

For example, Sadhguru does not give a fuck about helping you understand how science and spirituality interconnect. I do.

What is the connection between Western science & spirituality? << That's a really good question to contemplate.

[Nahm]

42 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

What is the connection between Western science & spirituality?

Separation.