Psychedelics vs Consciousness practices

[now is forever]

well using the metaphor of accessing enlightenment through psychedelics compared to using a tool - there is still one comparison left: to fly a rocket you need to attain the ability to fly the rocket first what also takes some years of training to know what precautions you need to take. to use a forklifter you need some training...

it’s a splatter.

so don’t watch if you’re sensitive to film blood.

Edited March 29, 2019 by now is forever

[Forestluv]

2 hours ago, purerogue said:

 5-meo-dmt is probably good for insights, to make  mediation go deeper, but I do not see how it will help you to attain awakening, as it is something that you reach and keep with you on daily bases and I am not talking about some knowledge, but more of a state. 

I think it depends on your definition of "awakening". 

For me, psychedelics opened a whole new expansive arena and the concept of "awakening" expanded as well. 

I imagine being in a cave my whole life without contact to the outside world. I'm surviving on cave fish. Then way day I find an opening and walk out to the outside world. The cave life is just never the same. Would you call this an awakening I keep with me everyday? Or would you call it an insight I don't keep with me everyday? It's kind of an odd question to me. I would lean toward saying it was an awakening I keep with me everyday because once I was exposed to the outside world, there is never going back. I could never go back into the cave and return to the old mindset. I can't unsee the Truth.

[thesmileyone]

It's realization not an awakening, and you do keep it every day, it is just no longer new to you. Awakening is just...awakening to truth not necessarily understanding it, which is why psychedelics don't equal instant enlightenment. You could do 1000 5meo trips and reach the absolute end but if you don't have realizations when sober (integration) you aren't necessarily progressing.

Like driving a car is no longer new to a 30 year old who learnt to drive at 17, it doesn't mean the knowledge / insight / realization has gone anywhere. On the same flipside, if you drive a car once (awakening) does that mean you are ready to pass your test? (realization / integration).

[Leo Gura]

12 hours ago, Arhattobe said:

Insights carry legitimate truths but they are stored in the frontal lobe, and merely by storing them due to their reductionist nature they distort and pervert. Are hijacked by the devil. Emotional highs, subconsious distortions are created without ones being the wiser. Look up the brahmanjala sutta. The Buddha talks about this at length in said sutta. 

What is my point. If your stable level of consciousness is at one point and you jump deep into the depth of reality. The insights you carry back will be heavily perverted. Far more than you know. They will carry the stench of the devil. The ten defilements, and although they will sound good and reflect an actual reality. They will be far, far in purity. To the actuality.

Ones mind needs to be trained to ingest an insight without perversion. Insights with heavy perversion can even be counterproductive. Eg there is nothing to do types in advaita.

In my opinion the psychedelic path suffers heavily from this fact.

There is some truth to what you are saying. Yes, it's important to be careful.

But also you have to consider where many people would be who do psychedelics if they didn't do them. My suggestion is: in a far worse place. For example, if I had not done 5-MeO over the last 2 years, my teachings would be significantly worse and less truthful than they are now and I would never have been able to access the levels of consciousness, truth, insight, and purification through traditional meditation or self-inquiry. So what was I to do in this case?

My point is, don't let perfection get in the way of one's growth. Most people who follow me are nowhere near capable of having 5-MeO levels of consciousness and insight sober through a few sits of meditation or self-inquiry. So what do you suggest they do? Your suggestions must be practical and workable for ordinary people. You cannot just assume that the person is spiritually gifted as it sounds like you have always been.

Spirituality is not equal for all people. Some people have a much harder path than you. What is to be done with such people? Since most people are in fact like this, we cannot expect perfection from them. It's not about becoming fully awake, it's about helping them become MORE awake THAN THEY'VE BEEN.

There is a process at work here. Yes, there are traps in the process. Every spiritual path has many traps. Psychedelics do have some unique traps. But they are also amazing and life-changing is very positive ways.

[How to be wise]

@Leo Gura When you say that reality is like a fractal, where you can zoom in forever, I can’t believe you. I have the awareness that nothing is hidden, nothing is behind my back, so to speak. Before you’ve zoomed in on something, the only thing that exists is what you’re seeing right now. There is no ‘deeper’ world hidden within the fractal.

[Tetcher]

@How to be wise if nothing is behind you then you have transcended all compulsions, mastered all life. Hunger doesn't exist for you because all the causation that would have caused it is here for you to see. Is posting here and that the best thing one can do when she sees it all in front of her or does she fails to recognize the behind-the-scene compulsions at work leading to that action ?

Edited March 30, 2019 by Tetcher

[Arhattobe]

@Leo Gura That’s a very level headed response. Seems like you really have grown. Seeing the intelligence and purpose in things I believe has brightened your world, and will do the same for those listening to you. Your new genuineness and openness are also great developments  

In regards to the psychedelic path, although I see the issues it suffers from, and believe my vision and understanding is clear.

It is true that I have failed to recognise where others are coming from previously in my life. What is good for the goose is not for the gandor so to speak.

I have also consistently realised life is not as black and white and more nuanced that I believed before. 

There is purpose in all things, everyone learns the lessons they need to and are capable of learning, some humility may be in order on my part. Life knows what it’s doing. 

Having said that. I can elaborate on a path I recommend. That’s worked for me, and others I have worked with. It suffers from its own drawbacks but I believe it is a superior.

 

[Matt8800]

@Scholar My direct experience is that nothing comes close to the spiritual awakening that psychedelics provide. The people that disagree are usually people that have had little experience with psychedelics, or dont use them, and want to believe that they are not missing anything.

If all gurus had correct beliefs all the time, they would all agree on everything. Obviously, for this reason, its obvious being a "guru" doesnt make you right about everything.

If a guru says something that contradicts direct experience, the guru is wrong. Direct experience illuminates the truth.

[thesmileyone]

Quote

It is true that I have failed to recognise where others are coming from previously in my life. What is good for the goose is not for the gandor so to speak.

That's actually been one of my best "real life" tangible benefits to come from my path so far.

When someone does something that I percieve not right, I automatically step into their POV to understand the situation; it happens often on autopilot now, whereas before I would just see stuff from my perspective.

[Arhattobe]

@thesmileyone That is quite natural. Normalcy is non existent, and we all live in extremely different worlds. If you step into spirituality, the differences magnify as well. 

Good that you do that smiley:) 

[Matt8800]

On 3/29/2019 at 4:50 AM, Highest said:

True ?But there are those enlightened masters like Mooji and Meher baba who says that psycadelics is far away from reality and Truth, that it is a distraction.

I don't agree with them but just wanted to point it out and maybe get your opinion on that.

@Highest If they contradict direct experience, than obviously they are wrong. 

[Matt8800]

On 3/29/2019 at 5:02 AM, Scholar said:

I agree with that but I see a danger in psychedelics because it inherently makes us lazy,

@Scholar That is not my experience. Not sure why this assumption was made.

On 3/29/2019 at 5:02 AM, Scholar said:

That is not what I am asking. I understand that psychedelics are a good tool for most people, I am just asking who would eventually reach the greatest depth, a yogi who is talented and does consciousness work all day long or someone who took lots of psychedelics and had a amateur-esk consciousness practice? I have no idea, I just want to propose that it might be possible that the one who did the consciousness work all his life might get into the greater depth eventually.

And yes, if he took psychedelics he would probably get even deeper, but as it stands people who take psychedelics seem to simply not dedicate their life's to consciousness work like for examples yogis do. I am sure that people used to do that in the past, but nowadays it seems non-present.

 

Imagine you did what you did for the retreat for the rest of your life, non stop. That is what I imagine someone to do who is dedicated entirely to consciousness work.

Those are unsubstantiated assumptions. If 2 people meditate 2 hours per day and one of them does psychedelics, the one taking psychedelics is going to leave the other one in the dust. That is my direct experience and I will follow direct experience wisdom over assumptions, even if they come from enlightened people that are confused on the subject.

[Matt8800]

On 3/29/2019 at 6:46 AM, billiesimon said:

I only practice meditation and kriya yoga, I don't have experience with psychedelics, but...

How is it possible that a drug can induce enlightenment? And in such a FASTER way in the mind of some lazy dumb person who never disciplined themselves to become present and mindful?

It makes no sense to me, but I understand that it actually happens.

But... it takes away all the "willpower" component of becoming conscious and aware of your everyday sleepy state. Why does it work so much on an average joe with no awareness skills?

@billiesimon read the highlighted words and ask yourself why you have formed an opinion.

[Matt8800]

23 hours ago, tsuki said:

It's so seductive to defend your own personal path, isn't it?
You took the drug and now it is valid.
You didn't take the drug and it feels threatening.

What would happen if we just admitted that paths are incomparable and yet, identical?

@tsuki Another way of saying, "you took the drug and now its valid" is "you had a direct experience and now you know the knowledge is valid".

[Forestluv]

1 hour ago, Arhattobe said:

Having said that. I can elaborate on a path I recommend. That’s worked for me, and others I have worked with. It suffers from its own drawbacks but I believe it is a superior.

Why not enter a situation with an open mind and create a reccomendation that is best for the situation that arises?

With the above attitude, you would miss a lot of situations in which psychedelics would be valuable as part of their path.

When I advise people, I don’t think “based on my experience, this path is superior for people” before they even enter my office. I allow them to enter my office and I have an open mind. My intention is to help them find the best path for themself. That may be similiar to my path or different than my path. I listen to them and based on what they say, I may share pieces of my knowledge and experience that may help them along their own path. I don’t try to steer them along a path I think would be best for them. 

[How to be wise]

6 hours ago, Tetcher said:

@How to be wise if nothing is behind you then you have transcended all compulsions, mastered all life. Hunger doesn't exist for you because all the causation that would have caused it is here for you to see. Is posting here and that the best thing one can do when she sees it all in front of her or does she fails to recognize the behind-the-scene compulsions at work leading to that action ?

Lol, hunger is not behind my back (I wish it was). Hunger is real when it comes. But hunger has no cause. Because the causation is behind my back (i.e. not real). 

There’s nothing wrong with using the mind, using thoughts, and ‘behind the scenes’ theory. Just become aware that they are not real. They are not true. 

When Leo says that: space stretches out for infinity, I can’t believe him. Anything behind the scenes exist as my thoughts. So when I think about space stretching out to infinity, I’m confusing my thoughts for reality. Notice that if you can’t think of it, it can’t be real!

[now is forever]

18 hours ago, Matt8800 said:

If 2 people meditate 2 hours per day and one of them does psychedelics, the one taking psychedelics is going to leave the other one in the dust.

that’s a very deep insight. might be my own arrogance speaking - but the problem about using psychedelics is certainly a spiritual ego that is not completely rooted in earth and runs for the stars much more than for earth. sometimes not seeing what happens to earth anymore. 

but on the other hand of course a spiritual ego might be better than a non spiritual. question is always about the direction of spirituality - and if there are even non spiritual egos.

that‘s why i still see some advantages in taking psychedelics during guided ceremonies, with plans of preparation that give the spiritual ego a direction, because not every spiritual ego has an inner map especially if new to the territory.

i mean a little thread helps out of any labyrinth.

[Truth Addict]

On 29/03/2019 at 4:25 PM, mandyjw said:

Don't forget that there are other ways to alter you state of consciousness and lessen resistance so you can achieve deeper enlightenment states.

I've had amazing success with running.  I've brought on states of complete bliss and amazing insights that I've been able to take back with me. I knew from before doing consciousness work how amazing the meditative body aware state of running was, especially combined with a huge dopamine hit,  "runner's high." Adding in the lessons and intentions of consciousness work with that was an amazing breakthrough. Sometimes I worry I won't be able to find my way back home because I'll have forgotten myself entirely. 

Just by putting yourself in different state of consciousness with the purpose and intention of awareness can be really powerful. 

Everybody has their thing. go find yours. 

Cool! I also had a lot of highs on running, but that was two years ago before I ever knew that's possible, or what the value of it would be, it was all before I started to buy into this self actualization thing.

It helped me break out of a 7 years long depression.

I can't wait for the summer to try again with clear intentions to seek higher truths.