Psychedelics vs Consciousness practices

[mandyjw]

Don't forget that there are other ways to alter you state of consciousness and lessen resistance so you can achieve deeper enlightenment states.

I've had amazing success with running.  I've brought on states of complete bliss and amazing insights that I've been able to take back with me. I knew from before doing consciousness work how amazing the meditative body aware state of running was, especially combined with a huge dopamine hit,  "runner's high." Adding in the lessons and intentions of consciousness work with that was an amazing breakthrough. Sometimes I worry I won't be able to find my way back home because I'll have forgotten myself entirely. 

Just by putting yourself in different state of consciousness with the purpose and intention of awareness can be really powerful. 

Everybody has their thing. go find yours. 

[billiesimon]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

5-MeO is gonna be hard to beat. You could only beat it if you devoted your entire life to full-time practice. You basically would have no life but meditation.

I only practice meditation and kriya yoga, I don't have experience with psychedelics, but...

How is it possible that a drug can induce enlightenment? And in such a FASTER way in the mind of some lazy dumb person who never disciplined themselves to become present and mindful?

It makes no sense to me, but I understand that it actually happens.

But... it takes away all the "willpower" component of becoming conscious and aware of your everyday sleepy state. Why does it work so much on an average joe with no awareness skills?

Edited March 29, 2019 by billiesimon

[tsuki]

It's so seductive to defend your own personal path, isn't it?
You took the drug and now it is valid.
You didn't take the drug and it feels threatening.

What would happen if we just admitted that paths are incomparable and yet, identical?

Edited March 29, 2019 by tsuki

[Scholar]

35 minutes ago, billiesimon said:

I only practice meditation and kriya yoga, I don't have experience with psychedelics, but...

How is it possible that a drug can induce enlightenment? And in such a FASTER way in the mind of some lazy dumb person who never disciplined themselves to become present and mindful?

It makes no sense to me, but I understand that it actually happens.

But... it takes away all the "willpower" component of becoming conscious and aware of your everyday sleepy state. Why does it work so much on an average joe with no awareness skills?

As I understand it's because enlightenment is the absence of a limitation your mind puts upon awareness to operate in a certain way. The part of brain the that is responsible for imposing that limitation upon consciousness is what is being targeted and disabled by the psychedelic, among other things.

 

Enlightenment is not an addition to consciousness but the removal of a certain aspect of consciousness, namely the dualism or the limited identity.

 

26 minutes ago, tsuki said:

It's so seductive to defend your own personal path, isn't it?
You took the drug and now it is valid.
You didn't take the drug and it feels threatening.

What would happen if we just admitted that paths are incomparable and yet, identical?

We would most likely be lying to ourselves because we do not really know. It would take an enlightened superconscious yogi to take 5-meo-dmt for him to compare the experience, and even then we don't know if his consciousness work did not change something about the brain that effects the way he experiences 5-meo-dmt.

Equally we cannot really tell whether 5-meo-dmt effects the brain in some way that changes how future enlightenment instances are experienced. Maybe in the distance future the inspection of the interactions between waves and particles in the brain will give us more accurate assessments for this.

Edited March 29, 2019 by Scholar

[okulele]

@Leo Gura How stable is the insight from your 5-MeO trips? Could you hold the awareness of God while talking to others, doing chores?

[tsuki]

8 minutes ago, Scholar said:

We would most likely be lying to ourselves because we do not really know.

@Scholar Enlightenment is not knowing.

[noselfnofun]

 

[Forestluv]

3 hours ago, Scholar said:

I agree with that but I see a danger in psychedelics because it inherently makes us lazy

Hmmm, I would disagree that psychedelics inherently makes us lazy. Personally, my productivity has increased. Psychedelics have helped me synthesize concepts from various disciplines. I've developed a course integrating neuroscience, consciousness, psychology, metaphysics, philosophy. As well, psychedelics have increased the productivity of my gf and her reiki career. Further, I've spoken with people in Silicon Valley that indicate micro-dosing has increased creativity production in the technology field. Based on this, I don't think it is fair to say psychedelics inherently makes us lazy. I think it would be more accurate to say "Depending on a variety of variables, psychedelics have the potential to increase motivation and productivity in some people as well as the potential to make some people lazy"

3 hours ago, Scholar said:

Similarly, why would I sit down for 10 hours every day, in a cave, to purify my ego and reach higher levels of consciousness after I have taken a psychedelics that instantly gratifies me? Do you know a single person who did that?

I think what you are only looking at one piece of the puzzle. Yes, some people that take psychedelics will get caught in euphoric, escape and de-motivation traps. This happened to me and I've seen it in others. There can be an incredible amount of realizations very early. For me, I was downloading tons of insights and awareness rapidly. I stopped meditating. Why meditate? What happens is there becomes an inbalance. When I first used psychedelics, highly conscious people kept hammering down "Integration". They said you've got to integrate the insights through meditation, journaling and yoga. I was like "Whatever, that stuff is so slow - I'm good, thanks". Yet after a few months, there was a severe imbalance and everything started to become ungrounded. Meditation, yoga, journaling practice is essential for integration, grounding and maturity. These days, my balance is about 10% psychedelic work and 90% meditation, journaling and contemplation.

Imagine a carpenter that discovers a saw for the first time. He is amazed with everything a saw can do. I whole new world opens up. This new saw seems to save him sooo much work. Yet what happens if our carpenter only uses a saw and discards his other tools? He will reach a point in which is growth stalls or even decreases. He needs to go back to his toolbox and integrate his saw with his hammer, pliers, screwdriver etc. At that point, he can evolve to a higher level of carpentry.

My motivation to mediate and do yoga has increased since I introduced psychedelics into my spiritual life.

3 hours ago, Scholar said:

And yes, good consciousness workers are around who did psychedelics, but who reached the deepest levels of consciousness?

Please give me examples of individuals who have embraced meditation, yoga and psychedelics. Please make a list of people who have 20+ years of dedicated meditation and yoga practice integrated with over 100 psychedelic trips. Ime, everyone I have met with that criteria have reached the deepest levels of consciousness. With this experience, I think it would be hard NOT to reach the deepest levels of consciousness. 

 

 

 

[Forestluv]

3 hours ago, Arhattobe said:

I have done 5 meo numerous times. Breakthrough doses. By far my most meaningful peaks, insights and changes have come when I have been sober. Absolutely no contest.

That is your relative experience and has value. My relative experience is very different and also has value.

You seem to be giving your direct experience a lot of relevance and want to extrapolate your relative experience into universal truth. 

[Scholar]

4 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

Hmmm, I would disagree that psychedelics inherently makes us lazy. Personally, my productivity has increased. Psychedelics have helped me synthesize concepts from various disciplines. I've developed a course integrating neuroscience, consciousness, psychology, metaphysics, philosophy. As well, psychedelics have increased the productivity of my gf and her reiki career. Further, I've spoken with people in Silicon Valley that indicate micro-dosing has increased creativity production in the technology field. Based on this, I don't think it is fair to say psychedelics inherently makes us lazy. I think it would be more accurate to say "Depending on a variety of variables, psychedelics have the potential to increase motivation and productivity in some people as well as the potential to make some people lazy"

I think what you are only looking at one piece of the puzzle. Yes, some people that take psychedelics will get caught in euphoric, escape and de-motivation traps. This happened to me and I've seen it in others. There can be an incredible amount of realizations very early. For me, I was downloading tons of insights and awareness rapidly. I stopped meditating. Why meditate? What happens is there becomes an inbalance. When I first used psychedelics, highly conscious people kept hammering down "Integration". They said you've got to integrate the insights through meditation, journaling and yoga. I was like "Whatever, that stuff is so slow - I'm good, thanks". Yet after a few months, there was a severe imbalance and everything started to become ungrounded. Meditation, yoga, journaling practice is essential for integration, grounding and maturity. These days, my balance is about 10% psychedelic work and 90% meditation, journaling and contemplation.

Imagine a carpenter that discovers a saw for the first time. He is amazed with everything a saw can do. I whole new world opens up. This new saw seems to save him sooo much work. Yet what happens if our carpenter only uses a saw and discards his other tools? He will reach a point in which is growth stalls or even decreases. He needs to go back to his toolbox and integrate his saw with his hammer, pliers, screwdriver etc. At that point, he can evolve to a higher level of carpentry.

My motivation to mediate and do yoga has increased since I introduced psychedelics into my spiritual life.

Please give me examples of individuals who have embraced meditation, yoga and psychedelics. Please make a list of people who have 20+ years of dedicated meditation and yoga practice integrated with over 100 psychedelic trips. Ime, everyone I have met with that criteria have reached the deepest levels of consciousness. With this experience, I think it would be hard NOT to reach the deepest levels of consciousness. 

 

 

 

My laziness comment was specifically referring to making us lazy about hardcore spiritual pursuits, like sitting in a cave for 20 years and giving up everything for consciousness work. I think the chances for people to take these kinds of radical steps will decrease as psychedelics increase in popularity especially, in the future, in yogic circles.

As I said, I am not talking about people like you and me, but about the pioneers who dedicate their entire life's to this pursuit. Due to psychedelics a culture might be lost that cultivates conscious consciousness work in a sophistication that is not present in other cultures, like for example in this one. My point was that we cannot know whether conscious consciousness work might not get us to greater depths than psychedelic aided work would get us. It might seem that way in the beginning, but that could be due to an exponential increase in consciousness with formal training.

I don't know anyone who has seriously embraced yoga, meditation and psychedelics in a 100% dedicated way, as in doing nothing but that for their entire lifes. And if I believe Leo, then I don't believe anyone has ever reached the deepest levels of consciousness because it goes infinitely deep. My entire point is that while psychedelics might be useful for increasing your consciousness level, a traditional practice, while very slow in the beginning, might exceed the consciousness levels that are reached with psychedelics due to the momentum it gains. I don't know anyone who does nothing but consciousness work while still taking psychedelics, and with consciousness work I am more specifically referring to the investigation into the nature and essence of reality.

[Forestluv]

2 hours ago, mandyjw said:

Don't forget that there are other ways to alter you state of consciousness and lessen resistance so you can achieve deeper enlightenment states.

I've had amazing success with running.  I've brought on states of complete bliss and amazing insights that I've been able to take back with me. I knew from before doing consciousness work how amazing the meditative body aware state of running was, especially combined with a huge dopamine hit,  "runner's high." Adding in the lessons and intentions of consciousness work with that was an amazing breakthrough. Sometimes I worry I won't be able to find my way back home because I'll have forgotten myself entirely. 

Just by putting yourself in different state of consciousness with the purpose and intention of awareness can be really powerful. 

Everybody has their thing. go find yours. 

This is a bowful of YES!

I've done long distance running for many years and it is amazing for consciousness work. I can't tell you how many zones I've entered and insights that have arisen through long distance running. 

And I totally agree with putting yourself in different states of consciousness. I've also found different states of consciousness can arise through sensory deprivation tanks, shamanic breathing, learning a foreign language and cultural immersion (I lived with a South American tribe for a while). These are amazing for consciousness. Others may get into playing a musical instrument, lucid dreaming etc. 

There are so many possibilities. 

[Forestluv]

2 hours ago, tsuki said:

It's so seductive to defend your own personal path, isn't it?
You took the drug and now it is valid.
You didn't take the drug and it feels threatening.

What would happen if we just admitted that paths are incomparable and yet, identical?

Absolutely. I've been on both sides. I went 20+ years without taking a drug. I was anti-drug and gave talks about the dangers of drugs and how they are threatening. Spiritually, meditation and yoga was valid and psychedelics were invalid. Then I tried pyschedelics and become pro-psychedelics the magic bullet. 20 years of meditative insights in 4hrs. Then I realized many paths have value and integration of paths have value.

[Forestluv]

7 minutes ago, Scholar said:

My laziness comment was specifically referring to making us lazy about hardcore spiritual pursuits, like sitting in a cave for 20 years and giving up everything for consciousness work. I think the chances for people to take these kinds of radical steps will decrease as psychedelics increase in popularity especially, in the future, in yogic circles.

As I said, I am not talking about people like you and me, but about the pioneers who dedicate their entire life's to this pursuit. Due to psychedelics a culture might be lost that cultivates conscious consciousness work in a sophistication that is not present in other cultures, like for example in this one. My point was that we cannot know whether conscious consciousness work might not get us to greater depths than psychedelic aided work would get us. It might seem that way in the beginning, but that could be due to an exponential increase in consciousness with formal training.

I don't know anyone who has seriously embraced yoga, meditation and psychedelics in a 100% dedicated way, as in doing nothing but that for their entire lifes. And if I believe Leo, then I don't believe anyone has ever reached the deepest levels of consciousness because it goes infinitely deep. My entire point is that while psychedelics might be useful for increasing your consciousness level, a traditional practice, while very slow in the beginning, might exceed the consciousness levels that are reached with psychedelics due to the momentum it gains. I don't know anyone who does nothing but consciousness work while still taking psychedelics, and with consciousness work I am more specifically referring to the investigation into the nature and essence of reality.

Ahhh, I get what you are saying now. I would agree. There is an evolution. Psychedelics as a spiritual tool will become mainstream. Other forms will lessen and may go extinct. In a way, there is "progress" because new avenues will open with psychedelics, yet old classic extreme 100% meditation may go extinct and we might lose something of value there.

I agree. Yet I think it is part of evolution. For example, technology has allowed us to save time for certain things, yet there was value in the old methods.

I hadn't really thought about it like that. 

Do you think this is a good analogy? Imagine with AI we can create animals. We can create their DNA and development. They appear the same as "natural" animals. Yet know the natural animals are going extinct and are being replaced by AI animals. The question is: Are the AI animals actually the same as the natural animals? What if we find out that they are not exactly the same and we lose value because the natural animals went extinct.

[mandyjw]

41 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

This is a bowful of YES!

I've done long distance running for many years and it is amazing for consciousness work. I can't tell you how many zones I've entered and insights that have arisen through long distance running. 

And I totally agree with putting yourself in different states of consciousness. I've also found different states of consciousness can arise through sensory deprivation tanks, shamanic breathing, learning a foreign language and cultural immersion (I lived with a South American tribe for a while). These are amazing for consciousness. Others may get into playing a musical instrument, lucid dreaming etc. 

There are so many possibilities. 

YES! Those are fantastic suggestions. I love the Wim Hoff breathing for when I'm short on time too. 

[thesmileyone]

I'm at the point where I feel CERTAINTY that Enlightenment will occur for me.

 

So now I am in no rush, just living life enjoying the ups and the downs. I might try psychedelics because...why not? The certainty is there so why not make the path to it fun?

[Nahm]

@mandyjw https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WFflUxJJWvI ??♥️

[Forestluv]

50 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

YES! Those are fantastic suggestions. I love the Wim Hoff breathing for when I'm short on time too. 

Ooohhh. I've never heard of that one. I'm going to check it out. Thanks!

[mandyjw]

30 minutes ago, Nahm said:

@mandyjw https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=WFflUxJJWvI ??♥️

You're to credit for that! 

[Nahm]

@mandyjw Still you. ?

[purerogue]

 5-meo-dmt is probably good for insights, to make  mediation go deeper, but I do not see how it will help you to attain awakening, as it is something that you reach and keep with you on daily bases and I am not talking about some knowledge, but more of a state.