Psychedelics vs Consciousness practices

[Scholar]

Is it not possible that by doing consciousness practices for years and years, one actually creates a process for becoming more conscious which exponentially increases consciousness so that it seems like, for someone who has not practice long enough, it would be impossible to reach consciousness levels as high as one does with psychedelics?

Additionally, as most spiritual traditions include spiritual purification, might it not also be possible that Leo, because he cannot dedicate his entire life to spiritual purification, is hindered within the more traditional approach due to the limitations his ego put upon him? For example, if one would practice consciousness and purification, one would get to as high, if not higher levels, as on psychedelics, eventually?

 

The reason why I am proposing this is that there seems to lack something in the psychedelic process that is present in the traditional approaches. In the traditional approaches, one actually learns a conscious approach to increase consciousness, whereas psychedelics are an unconscious approach to increasing consciousness, though it increases it far more radically.

It's kind of like a photographer vs a painter. In the first few years the painter will struggle with creating beautiful and attractive visuals, whereas the photographer can do so in an instant. But the painter can eventually exceed the photographer because he learns a process which gives him deliberate control over the creation of visual that the photographer will not learn in the process of simply capturing reality.

Similarly, it might be the case that having the ability to consciously increase consciousness eventually will lead to higher levels of consciousness than psychedelics would deliver, due to the fact that one has a deliberate process of increasing consciousness that gets better and better over time, but takes longer to acquire. The same is true for spiritual purification, one can do so with psychedelics or learn a process that consciously purifies oneself, which gets better and better with practice.

 

How could Leo possibly know what kind of levels the greatest yogis reached, those yogis who truly dissolve their ego in the process of inquiry, so much so that they kill themselves in the process biologically, by for example starvation?

[Highest]

5 minutes ago, Scholar said:

 Hos could Leo possibly know what kind of levels the greatest yogis reached, those yogis who truly dissolve their ego in the process of inquiry, so much so that they kill themselves in the process biologically, by for example starvation?

He can't, only themselves knows. But all yogis are fully aware and conscious God. They also leave their body through mahasamadhi and attain total liberation. They are those who are enlightened God-realized masters. No drugs is involved for them.

[mandyjw]

I think that makes a lot of sense, intellectually as well as in my own experience. I think it's a huge mistake to say that one method is superior to another. The best method is no method. Life does it for you. Sometimes it seems like you're helping it along and training your mind but you aren't really. 

[Forestluv]

@Scholar I had 25 years of meditation practice without taking a single drug. I then added in occasdional psychedelic use. Ime, they both have value.

To me, it’s like asking if a carpenter would be better off if he just used a saw and refused to use a hammer. I would say the carpenter would reach a higher level if he uses both tools.

As well, I would say someone with a high baseline level of consciousness and stabilty that uses psychedelics responsibily within a balanced and well-integrated practice us very different than so someone a low baseline level of consciousness and is suffering unstable. In that case, psychedelics can be counter-productive. Yet in the right context, psychedelics are an extremely powerful tool imo.

Regarding different levels. After psychedelic experience, my relations and conversations with experienced monks and yogis completely changed.

[Highest]

2 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Scholar

 

As well, I would say someone with a high baseline level of consciousness and stabilty that uses psychedelics responsibily within a balanced and well-integrated practice us very different than so someone a low baseline level of consciousness and is suffering unstable. In that case, psychedelics can be counter-productive. Yet in the right context, psychedelics are an extremely powerful tool imo.

True ?But there are those enlightened masters like Mooji and Meher baba who says that psycadelics is far away from reality and Truth, that it is a distraction.

I don't agree with them but just wanted to point it out and maybe get your opinion on that.

[Nahm]

@Scholar Try considering consciousness is already all, so “it” can’t “increase”, instead contemplate a question like - what is the level of my delusion?

Then, you are positioned to realize -“I don’t know!?” That is the nature of delusion. 

Psychedelics can show the delusion, “to you”.

[Leo Gura]

57 minutes ago, Scholar said:

Is it not possible that by doing consciousness practices for years and years, one actually creates a process for becoming more conscious which exponentially increases consciousness so that it seems like, for someone who has not practice long enough, it would be impossible to reach consciousness levels as high as one does with psychedelics?

Of course, that's exactly what it takes, decades of industrial-grade practice which virtually no one is ready to do.

You have to understand that most people are not full-time yogis. So what good is it to tell people: become a full-time yogi, otherwise you will not understand anything I teach?

What we need are efficient ways of communicating these powerful insights. 10 to 20 years of practice is not within the realm of reality for most people. So we need something more effective. Someone who is going to do these practices hardcore for 20 years is already fully-bought in. You are preaching to the choir when teaching him. The real issue is, how do you teach to new people? People who are not part of the choir.

That's where psychedelics come in.

And also don't forget, there are many Zen masters and teachers who still have never accessed levels of consciousness as high as 5-MeO-DMT can deliver within 15 minutes. So 20 years of practice is no guarantee whatsoever that you will beat out 5-MeO-DMT. Can someone like Sadhguru beat out 5-MeO? Probably, but that's totally irrelevant because that helps no one. That is like saying that Arnold can lift 500 pounds. Yes, he can, but your sister can't. She needs to use a forklift.

The point of technology is to make things which almost no one can do accessible to everyone easily.

Could you imagine how backwards it would be if everyone had to be computer programmer in order to use a computer or smart phone? Or a pilot in order to use an airplane? Think about it.

Think about how backwards it is that a person must spend 20 years of his life chasing an enlightenment experience.

[Forestluv]

4 minutes ago, Highest said:

True ?But there are those enlightened masters like Mooji and Meher baba who says that psycadelics is far away from reality and Truth, that it is a distraction.

I don't agree with them but just wanted to point it out and maybe get your opinion on that.

I think teachers like Mooji and Meher have a litvof insight, yet how can they possibly be able to judge the value of psychedelics without any experience?

I place very little weight into what they say on this matter. I’m much more interested in sages with 20+ years if meditation experience AND 100+ trips of psychedelic experience. Imo they would carry much more weight on this matter.

[Scholar]

19 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

@Scholar I had 25 years of meditation practice without taking a single drug. I then added in occasdional psychedelic use. Ime, they both have value.

To me, it’s like asking if a carpenter would be better off if he just used a saw and refused to use a hammer. I would say the carpenter would reach a higher level if he uses both tools.

As well, I would say someone with a high baseline level of consciousness and stabilty that uses psychedelics responsibily within a balanced and well-integrated practice us very different than so someone a low baseline level of consciousness and is suffering unstable. In that case, psychedelics can be counter-productive. Yet in the right context, psychedelics are an extremely powerful tool imo.

I agree with that but I see a danger in psychedelics because it inherently makes us lazy, and again I think art is a great example of that. Since photography became mainstream we have not seen any sophisticated master realist painters that had the expressive power of idealization that people had in the 19th century. Art of that quality is extinct because there is no great need for it to be produces.

Similarly, why would I sit down for 10 hours every day, in a cave, to purify my ego and reach higher levels of consciousness after I have taken a psychedelics that instantly gratifies me? Do you know a single person who did that?

 

I am not talking about amateur levels of consciousness work here, I am talking about professional consciousness workers who do dedicate their entire life's to consciousness work. Yes, good painters exist today, but there is no John Singer Sargent around anymore. And yes, good consciousness workers are around who did psychedelics, but who reached the deepest levels of consciousness?

 

10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Of course, that's exactly what it takes, decades of industrial-grade practice which virtually no one is ready to do.

You have to understand that most people are not full-time yogis. So what good is it to tell people: become a full-time yogi, otherwise you will not understand anything I teach?

That is not what I am asking. I understand that psychedelics are a good tool for most people, I am just asking who would eventually reach the greatest depth, a yogi who is talented and does consciousness work all day long or someone who took lots of psychedelics and had a amateur-esk consciousness practice? I have no idea, I just want to propose that it might be possible that the one who did the consciousness work all his life might get into the greater depth eventually.

And yes, if he took psychedelics he would probably get even deeper, but as it stands people who take psychedelics seem to simply not dedicate their life's to consciousness work like for examples yogis do. I am sure that people used to do that in the past, but nowadays it seems non-present.

 

Imagine you did what you did for the retreat for the rest of your life, non stop. That is what I imagine someone to do who is dedicated entirely to consciousness work.

Edited March 29, 2019 by Scholar

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, Scholar said:

I am just asking who would eventually reach the greatest depth, a yogi who is talented and does consciousness work all day long or someone who took lots of psychedelics and had a amateur-esk consciousness practice? I have no idea, I just want to propose that it might be possible that the one who did the consciousness work all his life might get into the greater depth eventually.

It's hard to say. You can only know by doing both and seeing which one gets you higher.

5-MeO is gonna be hard to beat. You could only beat it if you devoted your entire life to full-time practice. You basically would have no life but meditation.

The real answer is to do both. They complement each other perfectly. Nothing I realize on 5-MeO-DMT really contradicts what the most advanced yogis say. The alignment is uncanny.

If 5-MeO somehow revealed truths which were the opposite of what the most advanced yogis say, then we would have a serious problem, as you would not know which to trust. But if they are 90% aligned, then there's no problem.

[Highest]

7 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

I think teachers like Mooji and Meher have a litvof insight, yet how can they possibly be able to judge the value of psychedelics without any experience?

I place very little weight into what they say on this matter. I’m much more interested in sages with 20+ years if meditation experience AND 100+ trips of psychedelic experience. Imo they would carry much more weight on this matter.

I agree ??

[mandyjw]

5 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

What we need are efficient ways of communicating these powerful insights. 10 to 20 years of practice is not within the realm of reality for most people. So we need something more effective. Someone who is going to do these practices hardcore for 20 years is already full-bought in. You are preaching to the choir when teaching him. The real issue is, how do you teach to new people? People are not part of the choir.

That's where psychedelics come in.

And also don't forget, there are many Zen masters and teachers who still have never accessed levels of consciousness as high as 5-MeO-DMT can delivery within 15 minutes. So 20 years of practice is no guarantee whatsoever that you will beat out 5-MeO-DMT. Can someone like Sadhguru beat out 5-MeO-DMT? Probably, but that's totally irrelevant because that helps no one.

You've forgotten to emphasize that if you are one with life, life is changing you itself. Focusing too much on hacks to speed things along strengthens a habit of impatience. I'm enjoying your video. I wish you'd just left out what methods you'd used and left it as a mystery and focused on the insights. But I also really appreciate the value in your honestly and your commitment to it. 

I can't even consider psychedelics right now because I have young kids. I've had incredible progress though, because I just can't put this work down. It's everything. 

 I just told my kid that he shouldn't tell people what they should or shouldn't do.  

So sorry about that, to both you and him.  

 

[Arhattobe]

Facts and statistics are not things people like it seems. No one asides Martin has awakened. Stably and permanently via psychs, and he has massive issues.

 

With all the psychedelics and insights people on this forum “integrate” you would think it would be littered with people at least awakened on some basic level. Stably and with a sober mind.

[Leo Gura]

@Arhattobe The psychedelic is a transformative tool. You are judging is improperly when you judged it like so: If it fully enlightens me in one go, then it's good. If it doesn't, then it's bad and useless.

If you're gonna use that criterion, then you should apply it equally to meditation. Like so: if I sit down and meditate for 30 minutes and it fully enlightens me, then I will do it and it's good. But if doesn't, then it's bad and I'm never going to meditate again.

How many meditation sits does it take to become stably awakened? 1000? 5000? 10,000?

Now apply those numbers to psychedelics. So your comparison is fair.

What would happen if you did 1000 trips? Would you become stably awake? If so, you'd beat mediation by 10x.

Why do I have a deeper understanding of metaphysical reality than Shinzen Young, who has 40 years of professional practice while I have less than 5 years of amateur practice? How do you explain that? There's some facts and statistics for ya.

You see, there's more to this than just awakening. You must look at psychedelics as a holistic tool for self-awareness, personal development, and mental health.

[noselfnofun]

The only drawback I've seen from psychedelics is its hard to integrate the insights you get on them into your everyday life. Like it shows you everything about the universe but eventually it wears of and you can't quite remember exactly what it was you got shown when you come back down. Whereas a few monks or people who have a very dedicated practice seem to be able to have access to these insights on demand. 

 

I can't say for 5meo however as I've never tried it or know anyone personally to have done it. Is 5meo different where you actually keep some of your insights a few months after the trip? 

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, noselfnofun said:

The only drawback I've seen from psychedelics is its hard to integrate the insights you get on them into your everyday life.

I haven't found it any harder than integrating insights from a 10 day Vipassana retreat.

Integration is core to all spiritual practice. Do not assume you will just awaken and become an angel without a TON of integration work.

There is more work in integration than there is in having the awakening.

Try doing 30 days of Vipassana and then go spend a week living with your mother and see how that goes. See if you can keep your Vipassana insights while living with your mother.

It's easy to keep your Vipassana insights when you meditate for 8 hours a day in a cave non-stop while someone else prepares your food for you. It's much harder when you have to run a business, raise a family, attract a mate, cook your own food, do your own taxes, etc.

[Dumb Enlightened]

 

 

[noselfnofun]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I haven't found it any harder than integrating insights from a 10 day Vipassana retreat.

Integration is core to all spiritual practice. Do not assume you will just awaken and become an angel without a TON of integration work.

Ok thats good to know, I've always been put off slightly by psychedelics because I have a few friends who do them a lot but they don't seem to integrate there experiences very well when the trip wears off. However none of them have a regular traditional spiritual practice to ground them maybe thats why. That certainly talk the talk tho lol.  Will definitely look at trying to incorporate psychedelics more.

[noselfnofun]

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I haven't found it any harder than integrating insights from a 10 day Vipassana retreat.

Integration is core to all spiritual practice. Do not assume you will just awaken and become an angel without a TON of integration work.

There is more work in integration than there is in having the awakening.

Try doing 30 days of Vipassana and then go spend a week living with your mother and see how that goes. See if you can keep your Vipassana insights while living with your mother.

It's easy to keep your Vipassana insights when you meditate for 8 hours a day in a cave non-stop while someone else prepares your food for you. It's much harder when you have to run a business, raise a family, attract a mate, cook your own food, do your own taxes, etc.

And yes I have definitely found that, integration is key and challenging. What tips do you have on being able to integrate your insights into everyday life? trying to remain very mindful? 

[Arhattobe]

@Leo Gura The frontal lobe is tied into what’s traditionally called the second chakra. Which in Hinduism is called svadisthana. Svathistana means the seat of the soul, but in fact it is the seat of individuation. Consious and subconsious.

Upon consious stable awakening. The consious part of the individuated self is set free from identification.

The subconsious still clings. Instinctively, through instincts, memories, feeling and a subconsious world that goes way beyond surface level thought and understanding.

Shinzen young who has awakened on a conscious level. Like most non dual teachers. Have their awakening hijacked by this hidden, subconsious devil as you would say. To fool them that they are at the end of the journey. 

Its comforting to think so. It’s easier to think so. Yet their behaviour betrays them. Defilements of the mind are still abundantly clear in such people if they are taken down their pedestals.

Mere practice, without a proper map. Proper genuineness, and self awareness of how deep the path goes can allow for people to get stuck. 

Thats why they are stuck where they are.

Now onto why your path, in my opinion suffers in ways you aren’t conscious of. In my opinion and based on my experience.

When an insight is had. It is reductionist. I am not saying this in a regular non dual way. Not saying there is no truth. No purpose. In the way it is normally meant.

Insights carry legitimate truths but they are stored in the frontal lobe, and merely by storing them due to their reductionist nature they distort and pervert. Are hijacked by the devil. Emotional highs, subconsious distortions are created without ones being the wiser. Look up the brahmanjala sutta. The Buddha talks about this at length in said sutta. 

What is my point. If your stable level of consciousness is at one point and you jump deep into the depth of reality. The insights you carry back will be heavily perverted. Far more than you know. They will carry the stench of the devil. The ten defilements, and although they will sound good and reflect an actual reality. They will be far, far in purity. To the actuality.

Ones mind needs to be trained to ingest an insight without perversion. Insights with heavy perversion can even be counterproductive. Eg there is nothing to do types in advaita.

In my opinion the psychedelic path suffers heavily from this fact.

I have done 5 meo numerous times. Breakthrough doses. By far my most meaningful peaks, insights and changes have come when I have been sober. Absolutely no contest.

Edited March 29, 2019 by Arhattobe