Using the force of God as an excuse to have sex your son's wife?

[ajasatya]

2 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

you're already divine in this moment

and so is the guy who got laid with his son's wife 

[tsuki]

4 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Tsuki, read that Suzuki book.  You will thank me later.  You of anyone on here will appreciate it.  

Yes sir! 

[Leo Gura]

57 minutes ago, tsuki said:

@Leo Gura Do you believe that the 'point' is to get as many people as enlightened as possible?

The point is EVERYTHING.

[Leo Gura]

There is nothing wrong with Zen teachings per se, I was just saying that they are minimalist. Minimalism does not make people aware of what they are missing.

How many Zen students really understand the depth of Zen? Virtually none. It requires super-human levels of consciousness.

The Buddha said: no one will understand. And so it is. It's too much.

[tsuki]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The point is EVERYTHING.

That's a spiritual cop-out .
Still loving you though .

[tsuki]

11 minutes ago, ajasatya said:

engage in a real zen sangha, go to retreats and live with zen masters/practitioners for a while. it will show you way more than the perspective of a single advanced practitioner.

@ajasatya This is why Watts' book shines. It's about broad historical context of Zen and its origins.
It's impossible to learn that from sangha and interacting with Zen masters.

Still, it doesn't teach what God is, but it shines through if you know how to read.

Enough of my fanboyism!

[ajasatya]

20 minutes ago, tsuki said:

It's impossible to learn that from sangha and interacting with Zen masters.

is this true? how many sanghas have you been part of and how many zen masters have you talked to?

[lmfao]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

For example, Shinzen Young does not understand why reality exists. He's not fully woke and he does not know it. That's with 40 years of professional Zen practice.

How could there be some sort of "why" reason. Things are just what they are. 

Edited March 27, 2019 by lmfao

[tsuki]

10 minutes ago, ajasatya said:

is this true? how many sanghas have you been part of and how many zen masters have you talked to?

0 and 0. Have you read the book so that you can say that it's really possible to learn what the book has to offer from Zen masters?

Edited March 27, 2019 by tsuki

[ajasatya]

1 minute ago, tsuki said:

0 and 0. Have you read the book so that you can say that it's really possible to learn that?

i haven't read it yet but i'm eager to read it. got the pdf on my pc already.

[tsuki]

Just now, ajasatya said:

i haven't read it yet but i'm eager to read it. got the pdf on my pc already.

You're the lucky one. You just have to read a book.
Now I have to travel around the world and talk to Zen masters in person .

[Leo Gura]

57 minutes ago, lmfao said:

How could there be some sort of "why" reason. Things are just what they are. 

Things are not just as they are. They are a very specific way, a very deliberate and intelligent way. Everything is intelligible. It is possible to become conscious of why every hair on your arm exists exactly as it does and not otherwise.

It is possible to understand why the whole universe exists. Profound awakening required of course. This is no ordinary reason. You must penetrate the very structure of God. It has a logic to it.

[Zigzag Idiot]

2 hours ago, tsuki said:

@ajasatya What about the material written by Zen masters? Like Dogen's Shobogenzo, or koans.

A contemporary paraphrasing of the Shobogenzo. I found it to be the most difficult of all of Warners books. Dogen actually expounded quite a bit on how Monks should wipe their butt. Why is this relevant? Warner has a lot of insights into Dogen and the extremely difficult text of the Shobogenzo. He also knows the value of humor.

 

[Forestluv]

@tsuki Based on my experience with Zen and buddhist sanghas. . . . Most nonmeditators have not left room 214 of the hotel. Most long-term meditators have stuck their head out of room 214 and realize there is a hallway and other rooms. Most monks have left room 214 explored other rooms on the second floor. Yet they haven't realized there is an elevator and other floors.

There is nothing wrong with room 214 or other rooms on the second floor. The are amazing things to explore. Yet there are also other floors and rooms.

[ajasatya]

20 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You must penetrate the very structure of God. It has a logic to it.

has it? 

we do see patterns on higher levels. is logic innate of the fabric of Reality or a tool for survival and contemplation on the level of the mind?

Edited March 27, 2019 by ajasatya

[tsuki]

17 minutes ago, Serotoninluv said:

@tsuki Based on my experience with Zen and buddhist sanghas. . . . Most nonmeditators have not left room 214 of the hotel. Most long-term meditators have stuck their head out of room 214 and realize there is a hallway and other rooms. Most monks have left room 214 explored other rooms on the second floor. Yet they haven't realized there is an elevator and other floors.

There is nothing wrong with room 214 or other rooms on the second floor. The are amazing things to explore. Yet there are also other floors and rooms.

@Serotoninluv I didn't mean to imply that Zen is the best teaching there is. I started this discussion in relation to the way in which Leo talks about spirituality using terms with cultural baggage. Since I have no experience in formal practices of this tradition, I avoided addressing this topic.

After this whole discussion I came to realize that I was hoping that there could be universal, integrated method for enlightenment that would be resistant to egoic influence. Zen seems that way because it is a distillation of advanced spiritual teaching to the point of silence. This silence however seems like a reason for why it is so widely misunderstood and traps people in all the wrong places.

I suppose that the best we can do for now is to attract highly realized people to observe commonalities while trying to minimize nondual bickering.
Thanks @ajasatya @Serotoninluv @Joseph Maynor .

Edited March 27, 2019 by tsuki

[mandyjw]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Things are not just as they are. They are a very specific way, a very deliberate and intelligent way. Everything is intelligible. It is possible to become conscious of why every hair on your arm exists exactly as it does and not otherwise.

It is possible to understand why the whole universe exists. Profound awakening required of course. This is no ordinary reason. You must penetrate the very structure of God. It has a logic to it.

Do you realize how analytical and masculine your approach is? You've got to balance things out to fully grasp truth on a deep level. You've especially got to balance it out when you're teaching people who are struggling to get a basic understanding of that which cannot be understood. 

 

 

[pointessa]

@Leo Gura  Isn't God's will actually fragmented into infinite perspectives of each aspect of god,each creature that manifests consciousness? Doesn't that indicate that there really is no unified or static will of God, at least in the dimension we are experiencing? The will of god might be in the manifestation of cause and effect, nothing more.  Just thinking out loud here.

[Forestluv]

3 hours ago, tsuki said:

After this whole discussion I came to realize that I was hoping that there could be universal, integrated method for enlightenment that would be resistant to egoic influence. Zen seems that way because it is a distillation of advanced spiritual teaching to the point of silence. This silence however seems like a reason for why it is so widely misunderstood and traps people in all the wrong places.

That would be nice, yet egos enter and interfere. For example, we could design an approach that integrates mediation and psychedelics. How would that approach go over within the Zen community? How would that approach go over with the psychonaut community? I have over 20 years of experience with meditation and sanghas without the use of a single drug. I also have experience with about 100 psychedelic trips. I have a lot of experience with both and I can tell you from direct experience both are useful tools. As well, I have integrated Yoga practice. What I found is that when I mention psychedelics as a tool within a sangha or yoga group, there is enormous resistance. Extremely strong resistance about how psychedelics are delusional, a distraction, dangerous, addicted etc. On the flip side, if I am with a group of psychonauts and talk about the value of years of meditation and yoga practice, there is huge resistance. They say all that stuff takes too long and isn't necessary for awakening. They tell me the true enlightenment experiences come through psychedelic trips and all that mediation is a waste of time. I spent months with people in Peru totally immersed in Ayahuasca ceremonies. They had all these random insights, yet they were delusional in their own little world talking nonsensically about things like illusory time - all day long. . . . It was immature and ungrounded. They were wandering around doing 2-3 Ayahuasca ceremonies a week - some of them for years. I tried to tell them the value of integrating Ayahuasca experiences with meditation, journaling and yoga now and over the years. They looked at me like I was one of those "clueless meditators" and went back off into la-la land for hours rambling on and on about other dimensions. Similarly, I've spent time with life-long meditators and monks explaining the value of psychedelics as a tool when integrated with mediation. The response is the similar - that I am a misguided, drug-induced delusional being with good intentions.

Each side is unwilling to let go of their own way and expand. Yet each sides has immense value and their synergy takes consciousness work to the next level. 

Those that use a hammer insist the hammer is best and are closed to other tools. Those that use a saw insist the saw is best and are closed to other tools. A being that is open to using all tools and develops those skills is on a different level. This being becomes a skilled carpenter. 

[now is forever]

7 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Zen is best thought of as just Zen, not as Buddhism at all.  I'm pointing these out to be helpful not to be a smartass.  I've actually researched a lot about Zen and studied a lot about Zen in the last few months.  Zen is a very special animal, best thought of as only itself.  What Zen is pointing to has nothing to do with teachings.  Zen is pointing to transcendence of the Mind, a transcendence of the believing brain.  That doesn't have anything to do with ideology -- that's a transcendence of ideology.  Zen pops you out of the Mind-Matrix, but that doesn't mean that anything changes, if that makes sense.  Whatever you had going into Zen is what you'll have coming out of it.  That's the whole point.  Zen is not about paradigms at all.

it’s difficult to separate zen from buddhism as there is not only one zen and there is not only one buddhism. zen is indeed a form of buddhism that developed in certain countries of asia but as well as you can’t separate zen completely from their cultures you can’t separate zen completely from buddhism. so i‘d be careful while separating the yolk from the white - the proteins that nourish the chicken are in the white.

edit: @Serotoninluv hehe that seems to be the case for most spiritual groups/schools/communities. it’s basically like trying to exchange the yolk of two different eggs and still expect the egg to breed a chicken or better put two yolks together and expect them to melt to one and this to develope into a chicken. 

Edited March 27, 2019 by now is forever