Question about contemplation

[Tearos]

Hey guys,

I've been wondering about this question about contemplation/reflection for quite some time now:

 

Does contemplation/reflection in its nature lead to same conclusion as Truth?

Example: If both my friend and I contemplate on the same topic, will we both naturally at some point go to the same conclusions which would be the Truth?

 

I'm excited to see what your thoughts are on this!

Thanks,

Tearos/Fred

[tsuki]

@Tearos If you use contemplation as a technique for enlightenment, then yes.
It is important to note that the complexity of your ideas will decrease as you progress, but it will be more and more difficult to put them to words and 'explain' them to 'other people'. Once you and your friend both get it, there will be not much to discuss in this domain between the two of you.

If you use contemplation as a tool to refine your ideas about the world, then no.
It depends on the starting assumptions you and your friend have. 

[Tearos]

@tsuki

I've been thinking about the posibilities of implementing contemplation into the school system. Would there be an opportunity to use the contemplation in this system which would lead the students to overall better well-being, do you think? I'm asking myself how that would work then, since it would be hard to know if the students are on the right track or not if there isn't a common truth to be found.

[FoxFoxFox]

@Tearos If you expect answers in words, then no. 

The truth of the Self which is the object of the "search" on this forum is universal though. 

[Leo Gura]

On 3/25/2019 at 10:57 PM, Tearos said:

If both my friend and I contemplate on the same topic, will we both naturally at some point go to the same conclusions which would be the Truth?

If you mean Absolute Truth then your contemplations should eventually converge. But even so, there are many facets to Absolute Truth such that even the same person will not reach the same point twice in a row, never mind other people. The trick is that the Absolute is singular, but it can be seen in various light, so to speak, and it will be interpreted very differently by different minds. It's sort of like looking at an object with very little light in the room. The object itself is always the same, but the lighting conditions plus your perspective on that object plus your distance from that object determine what you will see. Someone from 100ft away at night will see something very different than someone 2 inches away in full daylight. And then there's your reactions, opinions, feelings, and judgments about the object. All of that makes it very unlikely that two people understand/see anything the same way, even the Absolute.

But even so, there should be some rough broad consensus.

As far as relative truths are concerned, the situation there is even worse. The mind will color everything in such a way that your understanding of relative truths will tend to be very different from other people. Because how you see the world is a direct reflection of how you must see it in order to survive. Survival distorts perception enormously. What you see, what you know, and how you understand things is almost totally dominated by your survival needs. Truth is hardly anything your mind cares about. Your mind is 99.9% preoccupied with survival. Which is why there is so much disagreement between people.

[Key Elements]

On 3/26/2019 at 11:04 PM, Leo Gura said:

If you mean Absolute Truth then your contemplations should eventually converge. But even so, there are many facets to Absolute Truth such that even the same person will not reach the same point twice in a row, never mind other people. The trick is that the Absolute is singular, but it can be seen in various light, so to speak, and it will be interpreted very differently by different minds. It's sort of like looking at an object with very little light in the room. The object itself is always the same, but the lighting conditions plus your perspective on that object plus your distance from that object determine what you will see. Someone from 100ft away at night will see something very different than someone 2 inches away in full daylight. And then there's your reactions, opinions, feelings, and judgments about the object. All of that makes it very unlikely that two people understand/see anything the same way, even the Absolute.

But even so, there should be some rough broad consensus.

As far as relative truths are concerned, the situation there is even worse. The mind will color everything in such a way that your understanding of relative truths will tend to be very different from other people. Because how you see the world is a direct reflection of how you must see it in order to survive. Survival distorts perception enormously. What you see, what you know, and how you understand things is almost totally dominated by your survival needs. Truth is hardly anything your mind cares about. Your mind is 99.9% preoccupied with survival. Which is why there is so much disagreement between people.

Interesting...I wondered about this a lot, believe it or not. The only thing that I tell myself now is, don't say it to ppl anymore or anyone around 'you.' The message will only get through to others effectively depending on how cunning 'you' do your life purpose. It's not about disagreements or mere survival. You also have to show ppl how to get past mere survival instead of just telling them directly about the truth. If you could align your life/life purpose with truth and show it instead of tell it, that says a lot. The process counts the most instead of the answer.

[Key Elements]

@Leo Gura There's another thing I want to say here regarding contemplation. I find the thing that is overlooked is the question of: how do you actually convince yourself that what you became is actually the Truth?  If I had just done some meditation techniques or even psychedelic techniques, that would not even persuade me to believe in anything. I hope you write your book soon. See, if a person writes about the step-by-step process in convincing himself/herself that it's actually the Truth, would that turn out to be just a belief? Well, how does the person know for sure? Let me say that whatever is written down has to "make sense." It has to answer all the whys.

[Leo Gura]

@Key Elements The Absolute Truth is totally self-evident and self-validating. It is prior to doubt or question.

Infinity answers all whys. But not logically or verbally. It's just Infinity. The end. What else could anything be?

You ARE the Absolute Truth. Look at your body -- there it is. You're BEING it.

[Key Elements]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

@Key Elements The Absolute Truth is totally self-evident and self-validating. It is prior to doubt or question.

Infinity answers all whys. But not logically or verbally. It's just Infinity. The end. What else could anything be?

Because sometimes when it happens, the person just passes that off as a fantastic dream instead of it being the Truth and just settles for the maya without realizing what happened, unfortunately.

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, Key Elements said:

Because sometimes when it happens, the person just passes that off as a fantastic dream instead of it being the Truth and just settles for the maya without realizing what happened, unfortunately.

Well, there's no cure for ignorance.

Try, try again until awakening is undeniable.

[tsuki]

2 hours ago, Tearos said:

@tsuki

I've been thinking about the posibilities of implementing contemplation into the school system. Would there be an opportunity to use the contemplation in this system which would lead the students to overall better well-being, do you think? I'm asking myself how that would work then, since it would be hard to know if the students are on the right track or not if there isn't a common truth to be found.

@Tearos That's a tough one.

I don't think that enlightenment can be mass-produced in the education system. It requires maturity that cannot be forced/forged.
I think that it is best left in the hands of a seeker to find the teacher he or she resonates with the most.

Our society is structured in such a way that once we're born, we're filled with information that form our identity.
This identity is what is deconstructed during contemplation to arrive at the absolute truth that lies concealed under a pile of beliefs.
It may be the case that if we incorporated the two processes together, in parallel - the awakening would be much smoother.
It could even remove the jolt of 'AHA' moment of enlightenment. Some say that the sudden nature of awakening is counterproductive in refinement of the self and I agree with this statement.

The question is: how to integrate construction of knowledge with its deconstruction?
To an egoic mind that sees the world in terms of opposites that need to be balanced - this is indeed a riddle worth contemplating to death.

Edited March 27, 2019 by tsuki

[Key Elements]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Well, there's no cure for ignorance.

Try, try again until awakening is undeniable.

Well, what I'm trying to say is, becoming Truth is better than just listening to a pointer's words and believing in them. However, if you did become it, good luck in writing it down trying to tell ppl about it in the LP. That takes careful planning.

It's not just about being ignorant. It's way beyond that.

[Key Elements]

@Leo Gura Another way to explain it: I don't want to plant the seed in the wrong way. Otherwise, it won't grow. Let's see how I do.

[Key Elements]

@Leo Gura Sorry, I'm just thinking of another way to say it. It's challenging. 

Riding the Ox Backwards isn't something to be skipped. You can't just go straight to the Cloth Bag Monk. Good luck in describing Riding the Ox Backwards in your LP is what I'm saying. We live in a different society. It's not enough just to tell the 10 Ox Herding Pics. That was done in ancient times.

[Tearos]

@Key Elements @Leo Gura

Do you guys have any suggestions to how we could implement contemplation into the education system, and what that could result in?

 

[Key Elements]

4 hours ago, Tearos said:

@Key Elements @Leo Gura

Do you guys have any suggestions to how we could implement contemplation into the education system, and what that could result in?

 

I'm just going to go for it in my life purpose. I've already started this a couple of years ago and have a long way to go. Let's see what happens. I'm a bilingual teacher. That's part of education. Eventually, my plan is to express whatever I've experienced in my life purpose in two languages, and what happened as a result. I plan to do this in the structure of Spiral Dynamics and Maslow's--basic needs come first, skills come first, so one can learn how to survive and live in peace in this life. Then, comes the different methods of teaching, like through art, etc. It's much better if all this is shown than told.

[Key Elements]

On 3/25/2019 at 10:57 PM, Tearos said:

Does contemplation/reflection in its nature lead to same conclusion as Truth?

Yes, sometimes Truth just comes automatically. They call it Kensho/Satori in Zen. What you do in your life counts too. How much are you going to align your life with the Truth?

[cetus]

@Tearos

 

[Key Elements]

@Leo GuraWhat happened in your path? I think this is the biggest contemplation question. My path wasn't just techniques and results. If it was, the Truth for me would only be a fantastic dream. It's not convincing. I would still be an "atheist." And, how can we answer that question in just a post? It takes planning to answer it.

You could say: describe Riding the Ox Backwards. Ok, sure you could describe it. But, how do you convince yourself that it's really the Truth? There has to be indications surrounding the Truth that points to it. The pointer doesn't have to be a human being. Truth itself isn't a technique. There seems to be a tremendous focus on doing techniques and getting results. The things surrounding Truth goes beyond that.