Hope of future salvation?

[mandyjw]

I'm starting to apply this question to anything I do for spiritual reasons. Am I doing this out of hope for future happiness or salvation?

More and more I believe the only useful approach to doing anything is because it makes me feel fulfilled now. I was raised by fundamentalist Christians who dropped the fundamentalist part when I was still quite young. I was still really devout as a Christian until I became a young adult but I had liberal views and studied on my own. My entire life, I was told that you had to do the right things because other people decided they were the things that would make you more spiritual. My entire life I believed the idea that happiness is a complete non-concern in the present moment because our faith means we will get ultimate happiness in the future. 

I keep falling into this same trap with non-duality and doing things try to obtain a permanent state of enlightenment. There's no such thing. Just now.   

I feel like letting go of the idea that I should meditate or listen or read any teachings. I fell into a state of depression and nihilism a few months ago and letting myself want things and do things for fun without judging how they might affect my spiritual progress not only made me happy again, but also made me a lot more present too. 

The things I want to do end up leading me into having some pretty amazing spiritual experiences. They are not scheduled and I don't sit and close my eyes to have them. They are spontaneous so i don't have to feel bad if I don't have them. Why do I need to cultivate something that's already my essence anyway? I think that this is all there is. I think I'm OK with that. 

I just don't feel like there is anything that I can get out of doing this "work" anymore. I'm happy. Anyone just lived their life and said screw it to what they thought they should do? There's a part of me that thinks this approach is really foolish or even dangerous. But is that part the ego? 

 

[Alex]

William James has some interesting views, on your questions. Check him out. 

[tsuki]

@mandyjw This whole business of afterlife sounds to me like an outdated vehicle for being detached from the present moment.
Fortunately/unfortunately, we have science now and people are suspecting that something's up and the payday will never arrive, so they lose the benefits while retaining the downsides.

30 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

I just don't feel like there is anything that I can get out of doing this "work" anymore. I'm happy. Anyone just lived their life and said screw it to what they thought they should do? There's a part of me that thinks this approach is really foolish or even dangerous. But is that part the ego? 

How is enjoying the present moment foolish? Is presence opposed to thinking and planning? Don't you have to be present first, in order to plan?
When exactly do you think about future? Aren't thoughts about future appearing always now?

People get the weird idea that once you become enlightened, you become a catatonic that is unable to attend to himself.
You are realizing the absolute truth. It has always been that way, even if you were ignorant. Don't expect fireworks.

[mandyjw]

@Alex That was fascinating, thank you. I'll look into him more. 

[thesmileyone]

People are really invest in "Jesus" or "The 4th dimension" or "The new earth" at the moment coming to save them. It's somewhat stupid to rely on something external to you to "save you" not only that but...what makes these people so sure that they are "worth saving"?

[mandyjw]

2 hours ago, tsuki said:

@mandyjw This whole business of afterlife sounds to me like an outdated vehicle for being detached from the present moment.
Fortunately/unfortunately, we have science now and people are suspecting that something's up and the payday will never arrive, so they lose the benefits while retaining the downsides.

How is enjoying the present moment foolish? Is presence opposed to thinking and planning? Don't you have to be present first, in order to plan?
When exactly do you think about future? Aren't thoughts about future appearing always now?

People get the weird idea that once you become enlightened, you become a catatonic that is unable to attend to himself.
You are realizing the absolute truth. It has always been that way, even if you were ignorant. Don't expect fireworks.

But haven't those of us doing certain practices to get enlightened just replaced the afterlife with enlightenment? It's the same algebraic equation, we just replaced the values. 

My mind can't plan or think about the future and be present. I can but I realize that I need my ego to do the planning

 

[Arhattobe]

@thesmileyone Fantasies and the inability to look at the world honestly due to fear and other subconsious blocks. A more extreme version of what makes you claim everything is consciousness so it’s all good. Minus the non dual shift.

[thesmileyone]

I'm not so sure everything is consciousness anymore. Consciousness seems like a concept created by the mind to reinforce the right hand path.

[Arhattobe]

Our subconsious has insights. Ideation. Even if the consious parts of ourselves don’t attach to these ideas they shape our experience.

These subconsious ideas limit reality. “All is consciousness” might be based in a truth but lacks nuance. You are simply outgrowing it. 

[DrewNows]

What is it, the desire for spiritual experiences or the fear of letting go of this “work”? What parts are being done purely out of enjoyment 

Ive definitely been in these woods of which you describe. Who’s having these “amazing experiences”?  

Once I did “give up” and surrender all the knowledge and ideas I had, the unraveling of the self continued on its own 

 

Edited March 25, 2019 by DrewNows

[thesmileyone]

How do you know you are "enlightened"? 

I can't imagine a truly enlightened being saying such a statement if I am honest.

[Arhattobe]

Buddha used the term released. It’s more appropriate. Enlightened has a lot of subconsious baggage around it, and those who think they are it. Regardless of the depth of their non dual state still carry subconsious arrogance and other issues.

[thesmileyone]

Quote

The secret of enlightenment is to discover that there is no enlightenment seperate from everyday ordinary consciousness. 

Quote

How do I know I'm enlightened? Because I know the difference between when I was enlightened and when I wasn't enlightened. The difference is night and day.

Those quotes are completely contradictory.

The 10th fetter is strong in you.

[tsuki]

13 hours ago, mandyjw said:

But haven't those of us doing certain practices to get enlightened just replaced the afterlife with enlightenment? It's the same algebraic equation, we just replaced the values. 

@mandyjw Yes, striving for enlightenment as escape from fear is counter-productive.
The thing is, that you probably wouldn't have realized that if you haven't cleaned yourself with the said practices.

The problem is that until now, you have chased enlightenment because your understanding of it promised benefits.
Is it a problem with enlightenment, or is it a problem with your reasoning? Didn't you hear that enlightenment cannot be imagined?
You have probably outgrown your model, so it may be a good time to re-evaluate your direction.

I think that dropping the practices because of it is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Edited March 26, 2019 by tsuki

[mandyjw]

13 hours ago, thesmileyone said:

Those quotes are completely contradictory.

The 10th fetter is strong in you.

David has a different definition of enlightenment than our collective definition that we have on this forum. It's a definition that I'm starting to embrace more and more, because the other definition is a fiction. 

HOWEVER, he who says "I am enlightened, I am free of the devil" has become the devil. Enlightenment is only bringing the light of awareness to your dark side, denying the fact that you have a dark side is how you end up becoming a zen devil. 

 

Edited March 26, 2019 by mandyjw

[mandyjw]

7 hours ago, tsuki said:

@mandyjw Yes, striving for enlightenment as escape from fear is counter-productive.
The thing is, that you probably wouldn't have realized that if you haven't cleaned yourself with the said practices.

The problem is that until now, you have chased enlightenment because your understanding of it promised benefits.
Is it a problem with enlightenment, or is it a problem with your reasoning? Didn't you hear that enlightenment cannot be imagined?
You have probably outgrown your model, so it may be a good time to re-evaluate your direction.

I think that dropping the practices because of it is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Yes. It's ironic and paradoxical and too hopelessly tangled to sort out by using language.