Choice is a total delusion

[Aeris]

cause even if you act on right, or act on left.

Result :

A right = doing everything

B left = doing nothing

 

maybe you'll get a result C, that even looks like it's because you did A, but in reality, it was because of B.

 

whatever you do, there is no right or wrong choice, not even choice, because whatever the choice, the result is always the same

believing you have something to be doing, or not doing, maybe staying on your home a whole week allow you to not take a bullet per a terrorist,

hence this choice has been the right one. ( if your goal was not taking a bullet, but you didn't know, that is the thing, cause you never know and cannot know anything at all. )

 

means, whatever you choose to be doing, anyway, you don't control your life, you don't control anything, you don't control the behavior of people, their mind, nothing, you cannot predict a result C, because no matter what C become, it's because you believed A was the thing, but in reality, maybe it worked because of B.

so staying on your ass, or writting a topic, it doesn't matter at all, they are of equal value, you never walk toward something, you just walk.

Edited March 24, 2019 by Aeris

[Joseph Maynor]

Not choice, not no choice, not anything. 

Most people only grok "not this, not that".  They miss the "not anything" part.  That's why you need Zen teaching to cover that final bit.  You can't beat duality with more duality.

[Shadowraix]

2 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Not choice, not no choice, not anything. 

Most people only grok "not this, not that".  They miss the "not anything" part.  That's why you need Zen teaching to cover that final bit.  You can't beat duality with more duality.

Good shit. Freedom vs no freedom free will vs no free will choice vs no choice

These dualities need to be unified. The dualities are great for the relative perspective but they fall apart elsewhere. 

[Joseph Maynor]

3 minutes ago, Shadowraix said:

Good shit. Freedom vs no freedom free will vs no free will choice vs no choice

These dualities need to be unified. The dualities are great for the relative perspective but they fall apart elsewhere. 

Here's the general template: (insert your favorite mental duality)

Not this, not that, not anything.

Most people only grok "not this, not that".  They miss the "not anything" part.  That's why you need Zen teaching to cover that final bit.  You can't beat duality with more duality.

Edited March 24, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[Shadowraix]

5 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Here's the general template: (insert your favorite mental duality)

Not this, not that, not anything.

Most people only grok "not this, not that".  They miss the "not anything" part.  That's why you need Zen teaching to cover that final bit.  You can't beat duality with more duality.

Not anything must also unify with everything ?

[Joseph Maynor]

8 minutes ago, Shadowraix said:

Not anything must also unify with everything ?

What you do is transcend being hamstrung by the issue which is only created in the Mind.  It's thoughts flapping back and forth over being, nothing more.  It's blah bah blah.  Being is not hamstrung or dependent on blah blah blah.  So you carry water and chop wood and transcend letting these issues of the Mind distract you.  If you pick up a football and throw it, that has nothing to do with the Mind's blah blah blah about choice vs. no choice.  You just pick up the football and throw it and watch those thoughts, but you don't become fixated on them or sort of dominated by them.

Edited March 24, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[Aeris]

16 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

What you do is transcend being hamstrung by the issue which is only created in the Mind.  It's thoughts flapping back and forth over being, nothing more.  It's blah bah blah.  Being is not hamstrung or dependent on blah blah blah.  So you carry water and chop wood and transcend letting these issues of the Mind distract you.  If you pick up a football and throw it, that has nothing to do with the Mind's blah blah blah about choice vs. no choice.  You just pick up the football and throw it and watch those thoughts, but you don't become fixated on them or sort of dominated by them.

I see the thin line between being in the thought, and having the thoughts as in the model of being.

it looks the same for the observator, but different for the actor when he transcended his own matrix. 

sleeper though cannot understand what they didn't experienced.

 

but I agree on the football part, good and simple, understand-able

Edited March 24, 2019 by Aeris

[Truth Addict]

@Joseph Maynor @Shadowraix

The problem with duality is that you already assume the existence of something and then you try to disprove it.

For example, choice has never ever existed except in thought, so it doesn't exist in the actual reality, it remains a thought.

When you say: choice vs no choice, free will vs no free will, etc.. The problem is that you assume your claim to be true from the beginning (that thing actually exists), where in fact, it never was.

Very simple, yet very tricky.

Edited March 24, 2019 by Truth Addict

[Joseph Maynor]

39 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

@Joseph Maynor @Shadowraix

The problem with duality is that you already assume the existence of something and then you try to disprove it.

For example, choice has never ever existed except in thought, so it doesn't exist in the actual reality, it remains a thought.

When you say: choice vs no choice, free will vs no free will, etc.. The problem is that you assume your claim to be true from the beginning (that thing actually exists), where in fact, it never was.

Very simple, yet very tricky.

The whole point is to get you to transcend the Mind which is something that Zen teaches you how to do better than anything I've ever seen.  It takes you out of the whole Mental Matrix.  You'll still have thoughts, but they won't have you on a leash. 

https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/Suzuki-DT-Introduction-Zen-Buddhism.pdf

Edited March 24, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[tecladocasio]

2 hours ago, Aeris said:

whatever you choose to be doing, anyway, you don't control your life, you don't control anything

@Joseph Maynor @Aeris Who choose to write this topic ? That's the choice . Everything you do is from choice . If does not come up the way you want , that's another matter . 

Can you see that ? When speaking in relative terms choice exists . Absolutely speaking , there is nothing to say .

[Joseph Maynor]

2 minutes ago, tecladocasio said:

@Joseph Maynor @Aeris Who choose to write this topic ? That's the choice . Everything you do is from choice . If does not come up the way you want , that's another matter . 

Can you see that ? When speaking in relative terms choice exists . Absolutely speaking , there is nothing to say .

When you pick up and throw a football are you forced by necessity to consider anything about choice? 

Edited March 24, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[tecladocasio]

1 minute ago, Joseph Maynor said:

When you pick up and throw a football are you force by necessity to considering anything about choice?

@Joseph Maynor But still there is a choice . I am not saying that there is a ''me'' that is choosing , but for some reason a choice occured . When i'm typing this , doesn't matter if I think there is a ''me'' typing , the choice still happened . Is what i'm trying to say .

[Joseph Maynor]

2 minutes ago, tecladocasio said:

@Joseph Maynor But still there is a choice . I am not saying that there is a ''me'' that is choosing , but for some reason a choice occured . When i'm typing this , doesn't matter if I think there is a ''me'' typing , the choice still happened . Is what i'm trying to say .

Ok.  I don't want to get pushy but lemme give you one final thought to consider and then I'll go away.  What is that which thinks there's a choice or no choice?  What is insisting that this issue stay on the chopping block?  What is the issue itself?

Edited March 24, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[tecladocasio]

@Joseph Maynor I'm refering to my direct experience , to say that there is no ''choice'' is to go against my own experience . Look at your experience . Even a thought is a choice , if there is no choice nothing would exist . Do you agree with me ?

[LastThursday]

@tecladocasio Choice depends on the number of options available at any given moment. Your mind likes to simplify, so it pretends the number of options are limited and also pretends there is a deadline for choosing. It also likes to pretend there is an action to be taken as a consequence of the choice.

The reality is that at any given moment, there are a huge number of potential options. You narrow down your options to Latte or Cappucino - a thought then 'pops' into your mind to have a Latte. You then action that thought by telling the staff you'd like a 'Latte please'.  You tell your friend about your coffee shop story later in the day. The reality was this, you could have:

Walked out the coffee shop.

Gone to the toilet/restroom before buying.

Chatted to the person next to you in the queue.

Sat down and did nothing.

Looked at your mobile.

Held up the coffee shop with a pretend gun.

Made a choice for latte and 123 days later walked back in and actually ordered it.

Hopefully, you get the point. You discard all the thousands of choices you could have made, and instead you try and justifiy having free will, with the choice you did make.

[Shadowraix]

Having these discussions when people are viewing from different perspectives is hard lol. 

[tedens]

Just now, Shadowraix said:

Having these discussions when people are viewing from different perspectives is hard lol. 

I've same thought.

[tecladocasio]

1 hour ago, LastThursday said:

The reality was this, you could have:

Walked out the coffee shop.

Gone to the toilet/restroom before buying.

Chatted to the person next to you in the queue.

Sat down and did nothing.

Looked at your mobile.

Held up the coffee shop with a pretend gun.

@LastThursday Yes , that's true . But that does not negate that I still choose to have the latte ... hahah . I'm not saying that the thought ''I want a Latte'' causes the choice , but the acting itself is the choice . The ''I want a Latte" thought was also a choice . 

Edited March 25, 2019 by tecladocasio

[Joseph Maynor]

6 hours ago, tecladocasio said:

@Joseph Maynor I'm refering to my direct experience , to say that there is no ''choice'' is to go against my own experience . Look at your experience . Even a thought is a choice , if there is no choice nothing would exist . Do you agree with me ?

I thought about this and observed this as promised for a few hours.  Here is my assessment to your well-formed and respectful question.  When no thought is there, the issue of choice is not there.  There is no issue raised as to choice that is always there.  The issue of choice is only raised when a thought is present.  See, what the Mind wants to do is force this issue on every context without revealing that the issue itself is only a thought laying on top of what is happening.  The Mind says, this must be what's happening.  But that must is itself a thought.

Edited March 25, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[Shadowraix]

4 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

I thought about this and observed this as promised for a few hours.  Here is my assessment to your well-formed and respectful question.  When no thought is there, the issue of choice is not there.  There is no issue raised as to choice that is always there.  The issue of choice is only raised when a thought is present.  See, what the Mind wants to do is force this issue on every context without revealing that the issue itself is only a thought laying on top of what is happening.  The Mind says, this must be what's happening.  But that must is itself a thought.

You go back into the no concept mode but yet choice is still occurring there even if the mind is not presenting thought about it. It's not an issue. 

Breathing occurs even if the mind is not thinking about it.