Choice is a total delusion

[Joseph Maynor]

1 minute ago, Shadowraix said:

You go back into the no concept mode but yet choice is still occurring there even if the mind is not presenting thought about it. It's not an issue. 

Breathing occurs even if the mind is not thinking about it. 

Yeah, but are you really conscious of breathing unless the thought of breathing is also present?

[Highest]

Personally this is how I see it. I have a choice to post this or not, but it is not me choosing it. It is It which does it, that which is the absence of the illusory Self or Ego. Call it God, consciousness, whatever. Doesn't matter once you become conscious of It and that only It exists. 

[Shadowraix]

7 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Yeah, but are you really conscious of breathing unless the thought of breathing is also present?

Yes. You just lose the identification of "breathing" to it. Instead you solely directly experience where the pointer was pointing. 

[Joseph Maynor]

24 minutes ago, Shadowraix said:

Yes. You just lose the identification of "breathing" to it. Instead you solely directly experience where the pointer was pointing. 

Well, ok.  You don't need a thought to know you're breathing per se, but there does need to be a kind of awareness on breathing for breathing to even be noticed.  This is actually a very seemingly nuanced issue that I need to think about more and observe about more.

Edited March 25, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[LastThursday]

10 hours ago, tecladocasio said:

I'm not saying that the thought ''I want a Latte'' causes the choice , but the acting itself is the choice . The ''I want a Latte" thought was also a choice . 

So. Is a choice a 'thought' or 'an action' or 'something else'?

[Nahm]

What is the understanding of all this? 

Does one arising thought have anything to do with a previous arising thought?

If so, what connects them together?

[Jack Walter Leon]

First of all, we have to define what free will is and how it works. 

What would be the basis for having free will? It would mean that I make a decision one hundred percent independent of all influences.

Is that possible? 

 

[LastThursday]

A decision or a choice requires there to be something to choose from. No? If yes, then by definition it is dependent on something.

[Shadowraix]

8 minutes ago, Jack Walter Leon said:

First of all, we have to define what free will is and how it works. 

What would be the basis for having free will? It would mean that I make a decision one hundred percent independent of all influences.

Is that possible? 

 

I would question this exclusion to influences. Why is that? Even if I am being influenced by entire psychology decided that no? Does this issue go deeper than conscious thought? 

Ask yourself: What is free will to someone who doesn't know the future and what is it to someone who does? 

Also we gotta ask, from which perspective is this being considered? You'll get different answers depending on that. 

[tecladocasio]

1 hour ago, LastThursday said:

Is a choice a 'thought' or 'an action' or 'something else'?

@LastThursday A choice is what precedes an action ( any kind , thought , physical action etc ) . When I'm writing this , the choice is being made as I write , of course the choice must be previous to the action , but there is a choice , and is , in case of the writing , a choosed purpose : communicate. 

Does not matter if I'm concious or not , the choice is being made . Don't confuse choice with some sort of psycological struggle .

[LastThursday]

@tecladocasio so you agree it's 'something else'. In that case who/what is doing the choosing? What is it choosing from?

[AlwaysBeNice]

11 minutes ago, tecladocasio said:

@LastThursday A choice is what precedes an action ( any kind , thought , physical action etc ) . When I'm writing this , the choice is being made as I write , of course the choice must be previous to the action , but there is a choice , and is , in case of the writing , a choosed purpose : communicate. 

Does not matter if I'm concious or not , the choice is being made . Don't confuse choice with some sort of psycological struggle .

But choice > action > choice > action, implies time and separation 

[tecladocasio]

3 minutes ago, AlwaysBeNice said:

But choice > action > choice > action, implies time and separation

@AlwaysBeNice Of course , we are speaking in relative terms hahah . There is no way out .

 

@LastThursday

5 minutes ago, LastThursday said:

who/what is doing the choosing?

That's a good self-inquiry type of question , but don't need to be grasped to experience what i'm saying hahahha

[LastThursday]

6 hours ago, Nahm said:

Does one arising thought have anything to do with a previous arising thought?

If so, what connects them together?

The previous arising thought does not exist. It is just a thought of/about the previous arising thought. There is no connection: just a thought happening now, giving the illusion of two thoughts being connected together. It's as slippery as an eel. The 'feeling of familiarity' of having had a previous thought is not in itself a thought however, it is a part of thought, the same way the colour red is.

Edited March 25, 2019 by LastThursday

[Principium Nexus]

Reality is only what you believe it to be. What is the purpose to cling to the thought that choice is a delusion? 

See your mind creates a state of misery because feel trapped in this world where you might think nothing matters and everything is set.

Maybe the thing that is being taught is that one should transcend mere thought and feel one with the now. Like the example of building a sand castle as a child, there is no need of a concrete goal as long as you are content what you are doing here right now. Stop thinking about what future results will achieve, be here for the sake of being.

 

Edited March 25, 2019 by Principium Nexus

[AlwaysBeNice]

Also interesting to (learn to) notice, the first few dreams after deepsleep, everything goes automatically, sense of do-er ship only arises later. 

[Zetxil]

8 hours ago, Joseph Maynor said:

Yeah, but are you really conscious of breathing unless the thought of breathing is also present?

@Joseph Maynor

Good question! You seem to be confusing conscious with being aware though! You were once aware of breath and you will be aware of it again! Being aware of breath can ground consciousness into the body! We have the choice in what to be aware of! 

7 hours ago, LastThursday said:

So. Is a choice a 'thought' or 'an action' or 'something else'?

@LastThursday 

Choice seems to be all three of those things in different situations! 

6 hours ago, Nahm said:

What is the understanding of all this? 

Does one arising thought have anything to do with a previous arising thought?

If so, what connects them together?

@Nahm

Understanding of all of what? I didn't follow what you were getting at with the word "this"

Of course! Thoughts are connected with previous thought and thoughts yet to come! There doesn't seem to be a tangible word or phrase that connects individual thoughts to the greater whole, but one can realize that they are connected in some way (usually unique to the situation)

6 hours ago, Jack Walter Leon said:

First of all, we have to define what free will is and how it works. 

What would be the basis for having free will? It would mean that I make a decision one hundred percent independent of all influences.

Is that possible? 

 

@Jack Walter Leon

Free will: the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

How it works is what these conversations are about! ?

Basis for having free will could be the integration of the realization that something is wrong and making a change in a different direction! It is more like you are making a decision taking into account as many influences as possible not 100% independet of influence! That seems to be the superpower of the individual!

What you stated, probably not. What I stated is the way it has come to me! 

6 hours ago, LastThursday said:

A decision or a choice requires there to be something to choose from. No? If yes, then by definition it is dependent on something.

@LastThursday

Just because something is dependent partly on something else doesn't mean there isn't choice involved! Think of it like this. I am walking down a path and there is a 3 way fork in the road! I have the ability to chose one of those three ways based on what I previously know about each path! In this case we can say I know nothing of the paths! So I chose one at random and it takes me to another 3 way fork and so on and so forth! The path that I have traveled is set, but the choices made along the way were, there will continue to be choices ahead! 

Everything is everything and everything is affected by everything! That is why we have the "butterfly effect" choice is a part of that everything! 

@Principium Nexus

You can only ever be here for the sake of being here! Thoughts about what the future will hold arise, but that doesn't mean they don't arise and can't be thought about in the present! 

[Nahm]

@LastThursday nice.

[LastThursday]

1 hour ago, Zetxil said:

I am walking down a path and there is a 3 way fork in the road!

This is an artificial situation. See, you have set up your options a priori, and then you make your choice after that fact. That is the delusion of choice. This is how we all justify having free will. In order to make a choice, you must have options, in order to have options, you must carve up the world into separate compartments. The carving up of the world, is the delusion.

1 hour ago, Zetxil said:

So I chose one at random

If you truly believe in randomness, then choice is not compatible with it. Choice is deliberate, not random. Free will cannot be truly random.

[Joseph Maynor]

5 minutes ago, Mikael89 said:

You can choose to act, but you can't choose the result.

Sometimes you can chose the result.  If you choose to cut a carrot in half, that will result in that carrot being cut in half.  If you choose to go talk to a pretty girl, that might be more of a gamble.  It could go either way, right.  So this depends on the situation and the context.  If you choose to run for president, that would be more of a gamble than the pretty girl.  That one you can probably bet on losing.  But who knows, you might win too right.  Look at Donnie Boy Trump.  That proves that anything is possible, right?  

Edited March 25, 2019 by Joseph Maynor