All teachings and beliefs are false.

[Pouya]

This is very powerful.

How could any teaching or belief be valid? Be True?

All teachings are symbols symbolizing symbols. From the most deluded teachers to the most legit ones. Words are words.

Are they useful? Of course, if you don't make it your ideology.

Are they needed to realize what is just True as it is? I guess not.

Tell me a teacher/teaching/belief which delivers Truth or explains stuff without words. (Perhaps there is)

The story teller creature is what humans are. Is what I am and what you are.

Stories with symbols can never tell the unreducable.

From now on I will learn and master shutting up for God's sake so this simple beauty goes on for itself. Nothing needed to say.

[Forestluv]

Be careful with opposites. Absence of truth does not mean false.

[Pouya]

@Serotoninluv All teachings can be useful in a way tho, but not true.

[Arhattobe]

Insights that lack nuance, hyped and generalised lose value to a great degree. 

Here is a teaching : if your body is healthy it’ll improve your quality of life. It’s quite true. 

Nuance is synonymous with growth. Overarching absolutist statements often mean you live ina. Isolated reality disconnected from how things actually are.

[Forestluv]

15 minutes ago, Pouya said:

@Serotoninluv All teachings can be useful in a way tho, but not true.

I’d be aware of opposites here. Opposites are fine, yet the human mind is trained to think in oppsites.

Once true and/or false, we are now in the relative domain. The absolute is one everything and includes every thing - including any idea of true or false. 

The problem occurs when absolure and relative are comflated.

Consider the staement “the fish are not the ocean”. Is that true? Not really. Is the opposite statement true? “The fish are the ocean”. Well that isn’t true either. The ocean includes everything: fush, water, salts, algae etc. The above statements are neither fully true or fully false. They are both partial true and partial false at the same time.

Grasping to any thing causes suffering. Imagine two people arguing over whether the fish or the algae are ocean. It would be silly. Yet most people in spirituality do this a lot. 

[ajasatya]

@Pouya is your notion of truth true?

if yes, you're contradicting yourself
if no, then it's an useless insight

go beyond the mind. beyond falsehood and truthfulness. what's between words?

Edited March 24, 2019 by ajasatya

[Truth Addict]

@Pouya

Useful insight! Almost as useful as a toilet paper, use it once and then throw it in the trash.

What I mean is, this is also a belief and it's false, so what do you do? Go!

[Pouya]

@Serotoninluv If someone wanted to know the ocean, he/she could stop talking about how fish are/aren't ocean and goes to try diving in the ocean.

What i mean is talking can never be as actual as direct experience, which any teaching in words is just talking about it. (that might cause a direct experience)

Yes, claiming all fasle all true statements deny some grey aspects of reality.

Even non duality can get a "ism" and turn to non dualism. Is non dualism True?

What I mean by "false" is not absolutely false. What I wanted  to say was "not delivering the actual/absolute truth".

You can open up Quran and find a legit insight. But it doesnt mean that the whole Quran is True.

@Truth Addict

@ajasatya

@Arhattobe

Edited March 25, 2019 by Pouya

[Pouya]

Ironicly what I just did was some talking nothing more.

[Highest]

yes all beliefs and teachings are false. They are not direct experience or awareness. 

[Joseph Maynor]

1 minute ago, Highest said:

yes all beliefs and teachings are false. They are not direct experience or awareness. 

What does direct experience say about itself?  What is that which sections out "direct experience" from being?

Edited March 25, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[Highest]

4 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

What does direct experience say about itself?  What is that which sections out "direct experience" from being?

It doesn't say anything itself, it just IS. I wouldn't say it sections out from Being. 

[Joseph Maynor]

1 minute ago, Highest said:

It doesn't say anything itself, it just IS. I wouldn't say it sections out from Being. 

When no thought is present, does the issue of direct experience even arise?

[Highest]

22 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

When no thought is present, does the issue of direct experience even arise?

22 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

When no thought is present, does the issue of direct experience even arise?

22 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

When no thought is present, does the issue of direct experience even arise?

22 minutes ago, Joseph Maynor said:

 

No. 

[now is forever]

12 hours ago, Pouya said:

This is very powerful.

How could any teaching or belief be valid? Be True?

All teachings are symbols symbolizing symbols. From the most deluded teachers to the most legit ones. Words are words.

Are they useful? Of course, if you don't make it your ideology.

Are they needed to realize what is just True as it is? I guess not.

Tell me a teacher/teaching/belief which delivers Truth or explains stuff without words. (Perhaps there is)

The story teller creature is what humans are. Is what I am and what you are.

Stories with symbols can never tell the unreducable.

From now on I will learn and master shutting up for God's sake so this simple beauty goes on for itself. Nothing needed to say.

if you don’t understand how could you know?

[Joseph Maynor]

Teachings are like place-holders for the Ego-Mind as you work to (1) locate being, (2) transcend the Ego, and (3) transcend the Mind.  You don't learn to ride a bike straight away, you need training-wheels to start.  Teachings are like those training-wheels.  You can't omit the training-wheels, they're necessary.  But eventually, when you transcend the Mind especially, the training-wheels can be removed and you can just ride the bike by almost a kind of magic.

Edited March 25, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[Leo Gura]

@Pouya Again, don't be so blunt. This kind of thinking is itself delusion.

Be nuanced. Not all beliefs and teachings are wrong or false. You must evaluate them within a certain limited relative context. Stop trying to make everything be absolute.

Teachings have certain pragmatic purposes and also limits. Teachings are partial relative truths. How else could it be?

[Joseph Maynor]

10 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Pouya Again, don't be so blunt. This kind of thinking is itself delusion.

Be nuanced. Not all beliefs and teachings are wrong or false. You must evaluate them within a certain limited relative context. Stop trying to make everything be absolute.

Teachings have certain pragmatic purposes and also limits. Teachings are partial relative truths. How else could it be?

Very nicely put.  This is an area where I find that a lot of people studying Enlightenment do not seem to understand well because the Mind likes to have only a single "one right view" and cling to that view in a context-independent way which defeats flexibility and nuance and context-dependence.  I look forward to writing more about this issue myself.

Edited March 25, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[Forestluv]

On 3/25/2019 at 0:26 AM, Pouya said:

@Serotoninluv 

What i mean is talking can never be as actual as direct experience, which any teaching in words is just talking about it. (that might cause a direct experience)

Yes, claiming all fasle all true statements deny some grey aspects of reality.

What I mean by "false" is not absolutely false. What I wanted  to say was "not delivering the actual/absolute truth".

 

 

I agree. The map is not the territory. Yet the map still has value. 

Direct experience has value. Knowledge and concepts also have value. 

No teaching is complete Truth, they are partial descriptions of Truth. That doesn’t mean they don’t have value.