How to get over guilt?

[Zetxil]

2 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

@Zetxil

In my experience, thoughts come out of nowhere, and I have zero control over them. If you experience something different please feel free share it with me.

@Truth Addict Novel thoughts do seem to come out of no where, but we all have this thing called a "train of thought" (train metaphor incoming) where one thought leads to another and on and on, these thoughts are more like the tracks and we are almost like the conductor driving this train. We don't get to decide which track to take, but the incorporation of previous tracks fortifies the current track we are on and allows for a greater possibility of tracks to proceed onto in the future!

9 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

@Zetxil

Why would someone want to remove the experience of an emotion, positive or negative?

There's no reason ultimately. And yet, there's a desire to do it. The author of the post wants to remove the feeling of guilt, and I shared my experience on how I remove any kind of unwanted feelings.

Understandable! And I noticed a trend in thinking, based of your use of language, that signified a misunderstanding of usage by others and wanted to try and help you gain a better understanding! The author never stated that they wanted to completely rid themselves of guilt, those are your words   The desire isn't entirely to be rid of an emotion, but to lessen its affects on the individual so other emotions can fill the space. When a child experiences something they don't like, or find frightening, we don't tell them to bury that emotion and not feel it to its entirety. Just look at what happened to Elsa in the move "Frozen" she tried to conceal and not feel a part of her and ended up in isolation until she expressed herself completely! We take the child in our arms and teach them to confront whatever they didn't like in a manner that is acceptable and most likely to be beneficial to all involved! 

26 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

 

As for your advice, thank you very much, I'll work as you suggested, I'll read some English myths and maybe some novels, I think my problem is a lack of vocabulary.

I want to make it clear that you aren't just reading myths about english people. Look into ancient myths translated to english. I find a better thing to have a grasp of, for the purpose of communicating/connecting with a bigger audience, is mythology and your own interpretations of the meanings of mutual stories! 

 

@Shadowraix

25 minutes ago, Shadowraix said:

@Zetxil The balance line I didn't clarify much but you could apply it there. I meant in terms in how you handle how you make other people feel and how much you take regard for it. Balance between caring for others but not being a push over. 

But the same thing you speak of would be consciousness/void/nothing whatever you want to call it. You don't have free will as an ego and consciousness dictating it but at the same time you are the dictating consciousness so you do. It becomes as paradoxical as being separate but unified. Depends from which angle you look. 

I find a lot with every either or situation it comes down to both being true. Both being false. 

The either-or situation isn't both true. both false.  It is more than that and you know that is an oversimplification. 

1 hour ago, Shadowraix said:

Free will or no free will fundamentally point to the same thing.

What is that same thing? You didn't seem to address the question

[Truth Addict]

@Zetxil

And that's why I told you from the beginning that it's a very simple truth. It's up to you if you want to verify it or not.

Debating with me will not get you anywhere, and I could easily debunk every single argument you used, or ever will use against that simple truth, because it is a fact, not a perspective. However, you might not be able to comprehend what I have to say, because it will require a certain level of awareness.

And of course, it might seem as a perspective from your point of view, because you haven't done the work, have you? Have you inquired free will? What is 'will' in your direct experience? Etc...

Leo has an old video called free will vs determination, I guess that's a good start.

All of these arguments are blocking you from realising that simple truth. Instead, look in your direct experience for free will, and if you ever find it, I'd be glad to know.

Speculation is not the answer, it's just another "train of thoughts".

Realising no free will doesn't mean that you run away or hide from your emotions, in fact, the opposite happens to be just true, you will embrace your emotions to death. But you won't know how to do that effectively until you reach there. There you will find peace with everything, all the emotions, the positive and the negative ones. And ideally, such distinctions won't make sense to you anymore.

[Shadowraix]

@Zetxil I did address it. It's literally a bit in what you quoted. Void/nothing/consciousness. 

I mean yeah the absolute transcends any label but for minimum mind fuckery consider everything in quantum superposition. Representing all possible answers. 

Typically either ors present two half truths that only become full truth when merged. For example, religion vs atheism. 

[Zetxil]

@Truth Addict

12 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

Debating with me will not get you anywhere, and I could easily debunk every single argument you used, or ever will use against that simple truth, because it is a fact, not a perspective. However, you might not be able to comprehend what I have to say, because it will require a certain level of awareness.

Oh boy, where to start with this haha! So if you could debunk everything, why don't you? Correct me if I am wrong, but you seem to be spouting that there is a very simple truth, but never define/state it clearly. You just say truth exists (which it does, don't worry, you'll find it eventually). Also, you may have misinterpreted our interactions as debate! This is false. It is more of a mutual conversation where both sides can be wrong and both sides can be right and there is middle ground and commonality in between us. How would you define your level of awareness as different from mine so that there wouldn't be a common, objective, truth instead of only your subjective truth. When speaking with you, there seems to be a irrational pattern coming from you. When you say you know something, but can't explain it in a clear objective manner.

 

12 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

And of course, it might seem as a perspective from your point of view, because you haven't done the work, have you? Have you inquired free will? What is 'will' in your direct experience? Etc...

I was once in your stage of disbelief where you can only interpret one true meaning, all the while excluding other! But that is why I am here, to help you take that next step in your development! To stop progress, in any direction, because you "know" the truth leads to complacency and ignorance! You must take responsibility to understand this yourself  

12 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

Leo has an old video called free will vs determination, I guess that's a good start.

All of these arguments are blocking you from realising that simple truth. Instead, look in your direct experience for free will, and if you ever find it, I'd be glad to know.

I rewatched the video just for you!  In that video, he is contrary to himself where he states there is no self, but then wants you to do self observation ~8 min (what a fun paradox!)

Defines self/ego as the combination of mental images and bod sensations ~14 min

He then continues to give examples of emerging proponents for 25 min ~up to min 40

More examples of how the process of thought comes in and other misconceptions ~ up to min 65

concept of surrender to nature = faith 68 min 

ramifications of no free will are spoken about ~ min 69 (nice!) onward

It is always nice to see someone work something out for themselves, which Leo has done, and an even better feeling when you can work out the problem for yourself. 

There is this trap of complacency and it is evident. I was once there as well! Don't worry though, you can work through it with dedicated practice! 

Again, you don't add anything to the conversation when you only state what others have stated before you. Your mind is too closed still, but the opening of your mind to new possibilities isn't up to you, that will come with time! 

14 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

Speculation is not the answer, it's just another "train of thoughts".

There is no speculation in my answers. The "train of thought" metaphor may be too out of reach for you still. It isn't a literal train! (Choo Choo)

 

14 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

Realising no free will doesn't mean that you run away or hide from your emotions, in fact, the opposite happens to be just true, you will embrace your emotions to death. But you won't know how to do that effectively until you reach there. There you will find peace with everything, all the emotions, the positive and the negative ones. And ideally, such distinctions won't make sense to you anymore.

ayyyeee you got somewhere! Good work! But keep up the progress and you may understand it all to entirety! 

 

@Shadowraix

14 hours ago, Shadowraix said:

I did address it. It's literally a bit in what you quoted. Void/nothing/consciousness. 

I mean yeah the absolute transcends any label but for minimum mind fuckery consider everything in quantum superposition. Representing all possible answers. 

Typically either ors present two half truths that only become full truth when merged. For example, religion vs atheism. 

Your right on the first part, I understand what you were attempting to explain to me now! 

The absolute only transcends any current labels. This is why we are all here and converse with each other (to find a shared, objective, "label" to the absolute) 

Poor example, but I agree with your statement!  

[Truth Addict]

3 hours ago, Zetxil said:

@Truth AddictSo if you could debunk everything, why don't you?

@Shadowraix

Because I'm not interested enough in discussing something very, very obvious. Plus, what do I get? I have more important things to do.

The work on your part has to be done, or you'll never know. Try contemplating the concept of free will, try to locate free will in your direct experience. That's the only way you can discover truths about reality. Thinking, talking, arguing, discussing, etc... Are nice, but still won't get nowhere near contemplating by yourself.

I would agree with you that I'm closed-minded, only if no free will was a belief.

Where in fact, free will is certainly a belief, but you're not able to see that because you don't want to spend some time asking yourself a few questions.

Why are you making this about me? Or us?

It is/was/will always be about you, and only you.

Truth is subjective, and subjective is objective. You think reality must be logical and rational, but that turned out to be wrong, reality is arational (not-rational), rationality is a concept created by the human beings, it's just a concept, like the free will concept.

No free will is not the ultimate Truth, but rather it's just one step on the way to Truth.

It's normal to think that you know when you don't know, but when you truly know, you know ☺

[Zetxil]

1 hour ago, Truth Addict said:

Because I'm not interested enough in discussing something very, very obvious. Plus, what do I get? I have more important things to do.

The work on your part has to be done, or you'll never know. Try contemplating the concept of free will, try to locate free will in your direct experience. That's the only way you can discover truths about reality. Thinking, talking, arguing, discussing, etc... Are nice, but still won't get nowhere near contemplating by yourself.

If you can't see what you could gain from a discussion then why do you respond, you are free to just leave a conversation whenever? To me it is "very, very obvious" what has been gotten and what still can be gotten! (side note: try to limit your use of the word very. It will help to expand your vocabulary into more meaningful interactions. Very is a filler word that conveys little to other individuals, especially when used twice in a row ) If something is so obvious, one should have no trouble at all getting another person to experience it. 

You speak as if the work hasn't been done or questions haven't been asked. Free will can and cannot be located within direct experience I can try to make you experience free will/locate it for yourself in a different thread if you would like  <-- oh look another thing you can get, a more open mind!

1 hour ago, Truth Addict said:

Why are you making this about me? Or us?

It is/was/will always be about you, and only you.

Oh? Is there not a me or us in conversation?

1 hour ago, Truth Addict said:

Truth is subjective, and subjective is objective. You think reality must be logical and rational, but that turned out to be wrong, reality is arational (not-rational), rationality is a concept created by the human beings, it's just a concept, like the free will concept.

No free will is not the ultimate Truth, but rather it's just one step on the way to Truth.

It's normal to think that you know when you don't know, but when you truly know, you know ☺

All words are concepts, concepts have an affect on meaning within individuals, and individuals can attempt to express meaning to one another to form a variety of structures. an example of one of these structures is a society.

and just as no free will is not the ultimate Truth, but rather just one step on the way to Truth, so is free will. <--why do you capitalize truth like it is a proper noun? (I just copied your mannerisms, if you didn't notice) 

If only you knew what you don't know 

[Shadowraix]

6 hours ago, Zetxil said:

The absolute only transcends any current labels.

My understanding is it transcends all possible labels. Well it gets paradoxical. To be unbounded also means to be bounded but unbounded etc see you get into circles with trying to use even labels like that. That is why what we are pointing to is considered undefinable. (Well to be undefinable is a limit too but surely you see what I am trying to say)

Are we here to find a label? Or are we here just to be here? Meaning is embedded in existence itself, no? Absolute infinity can't exclude this.

Edited March 24, 2019 by Shadowraix

[Truth Addict]

1 hour ago, Zetxil said:

If you can't see what you could gain from a discussion then why do you respond, you are free to just leave a conversation whenever? To me it is "very, very obvious" what has been gotten and what still can be gotten! (side note: try to limit your use of the word very. It will help to expand your vocabulary into more meaningful interactions. Very is a filler word that conveys little to other individuals, especially when used twice in a row ) If something is so obvious, one should have no trouble at all getting another person to experience it. 

You speak as if the work hasn't been done or questions haven't been asked. Free will can and cannot be located within direct experience I can try to make you experience free will/locate it for yourself in a different thread if you would like  <-- oh look another thing you can get, a more open mind!

Oh? Is there not a me or us in conversation?

All words are concepts, concepts have an affect on meaning within individuals, and individuals can attempt to express meaning to one another to form a variety of structures. an example of one of these structures is a society.

and just as no free will is not the ultimate Truth, but rather just one step on the way to Truth, so is free will. <--why do you capitalize truth like it is a proper noun? (I just copied your mannerisms, if you didn't notice) 

If only you knew what you don't know 

If you have a method to prove free will, why haven't you shared it yet?

I'd be glad to hear.

I gave you my method.

Notice yourself turning everything into a debate, and in my experience, debating is a waste of time, and that's why this will be my last post on this thread.

Notice your stubbornness and insist to make up a debate and win it.

If you have any practical tips, please share them.

If you don't, I'm not interested.

Thank you.

[Shadowraix]

6 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

If you have a method to prove free will, why haven't you shared it yet?

My understanding is that free will = not knowing and no free will = knowing.

From the relative perspective, free will is absolutely there, from the absolute it does not.

Consider that free will and no free will simultaneously are true rather than either-or

[Truth Addict]

36 minutes ago, Shadowraix said:

My understanding is that free will = not knowing and no free will = knowing.

From the relative perspective, free will is absolutely there, from the absolute it does not.

Consider that free will and no free will simultaneously are true rather than either-or

What do you mean exactly by the term "free will"?

Because in my experience, it's a thought.

Remove the thought and poof! No free will.

You might say "no free will" is also a thought, yeah, remove that thought too, and experience reality as it is.

[Shadowraix]

1 hour ago, Truth Addict said:

What do you mean exactly by the term "free will"?

Because in my experience, it's a thought.

Remove the thought and poof! No free will.

You might say "no free will" is also a thought, yeah, remove that thought too, and experience reality as it is.

Was the discussion ever really about experiencing reality with no concepts? 

[Truth Addict]

@Shadowraix

There's no free will, to me that's a fact, to you it's another concept.

It's impossible to communicate insights through language, you have to experience them for yourself, or they are mere beliefs.

It is always about experiencing reality with no concepts, or else how would you truly know? All concepts are not the truth.

I'm done with this, if you want to know, go and know.

Edited March 24, 2019 by Truth Addict

[Zetxil]

@Truth Addict

To prove free will exists, you can do your own thought experiment on the habitualness of learning a task, or setting up the cascade of events that can transpire, before they transpire. Think of it this way. When driving a car at 50 kph (the exact speed is irrelevant) , where is your attention? It isn't on the road directly in front of your car, because then you have already run it over by the time those mental images and body sensations get processed by the individual. No, your attention is out in front of you a block or so down the road. Because you are scheduling this cascade of events to happen and then letting them happen. You have no will over what happens in that cascade, but setting up that cascade there is choice. There is a gradient of choice that degrades, into a form of determinism, after a certain point in awareness. This degradation of choice is rooted in time. 

Now to me, you don't seem to be discussing free will at all, but you are denying the notion of the individual self completely. I.e. "If I don't exist, how can anything I do exist, and that is a whole different topic because it goes into what it means to exist." 

5 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

I'm done with this, if you want to know, go and know.

Leaving only leads to the denying on ones true self, but to stay and converse you may learn and progress

To deny concepts is to deny existence, and that seems very boring to me

[Truth Addict]

34 minutes ago, Zetxil said:

@Truth Addict setting up that cascade there is choice.

And the choice is based on what?

Do you have any choice over what you base your choice on?

You need to go all the way find out.

34 minutes ago, Zetxil said:

@Truth Addict 

Leaving only leads to the denying on ones true self, but to stay and converse you may learn and progress

Okay, I broke my word.

Edited March 24, 2019 by Truth Addict

[Zetxil]

2 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

And the choice is based on what?

Do you have any choice over what you base your choice on?

You need to go all the way find out.

Choice is based on the desires of the individual to progress into the future.

And of course! That is the integration of all past/current knowing. In order to project and cast into all forms of future! But that is where free will starts to diminsh, but never completly non-existant, because the likelyhood of those projections become less and less in control the further you are away from the present! 

Here is maybe another example, take a skill, any skill that you find to have mastered. I enjoy using the act of a professional playing music or performing a show. And you will find that when performing an act the individual isn't directing their attention to what is happening in the present. It is a few steps ahead and they allow practiced motor/muscle memory, to perform the cascade of events to have the inteded projection come into being. 

Think of it like this, we, as human beings, aren't inherently diminshing the input given to us. Anything that ticks (clocks, metronome etc...) or runs on a circut can be seen this way. Continual progression to an eventual end.

But humans! One of the coolest things about being human is our ability to change or disinhibit our already pre-programed movement!

Oh here we go! The finger movement from Leo's video. We natuarally make these circuts from the time we are young for movement, you can see babies do this where they focus on the movements of their hands! In doing this, they are essentially moving the conscious awareness of what it feels like to have a bodily sensation into subconsious so that action can be repeated indefinitly and changed to fit their needs in the future! 

Maybe here is a better question to get my point across. Why do we have consciousness if free choice isn't real? 

Consciousness here being the ability to take potential and transform it into actuality and habituate the intended movement. There are also different and district patterns of neurological activity that can be identified when intently learning versus passively learning which is a pretty cool phenomena! 

[Truth Addict]

21 minutes ago, Zetxil said:

Why do we have consciousness if free choice isn't real? 

I don't know why. Maybe it's a trick, to make life more dramatic and thrilling.

But that isn't conclusive, please go on with me on this inquiry:

21 minutes ago, Zetxil said:

Choice is based on the desires of the individual to progress into the future.

Do you choose your desires? How come there's even something called desire? Did you choose to have a desire?

Did you choose to be even born in the first place? Did you choose the family you grew up in? Did you choose the kind of teaching that you've got since the day you were born right until now? Did you choose to think you have a free will? Did you choose what kind of ideas you will pick up while striving in life?

Or,

Is it all a thought, and nothing more, that claims to have free will?

21 minutes ago, Zetxil said:

intently learning versus passively learning

Learning with directed thoughts vs learning without them.

Edited March 24, 2019 by Truth Addict

[Shadowraix]

8 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

@Shadowraix

There's no free will, to me that's a fact, to you it's another concept.

It's impossible to communicate insights through language, you have to experience them for yourself, or they are mere beliefs.

It is always about experiencing reality with no concepts, or else how would you truly know? All concepts are not the truth.

I'm done with this, if you want to know, go and know.

What is it that is choosing? Consciousness. 

What are you? Consciousness. 

Is the ego consciousness? Not to the ego, but it is. 

What is capable of free will and no free will? Consciousness. 

I'm suggesting free will and no free will are the same thing. You may use the no free will label to try and point to consciousness dictating to those who perceive separation only, which does work. But when you see something as factually false you can blind yourself to it also being factually true. Depends how you look. 

[Commodent]

@Truth Addict What are you trying to say, exactly? "I might have murdered this person, but I shouldn't be guilty because I was destined to do that". Is that a valid reasoning in your point of view? It just seems so out of touch.

[Truth Addict]

4 minutes ago, Shadowraix said:

What is it that is choosing? Consciousness. 

What are you? Consciousness. 

Is the ego consciousness? Not to the ego, but it is. 

What is capable of free will and no free will? Consciousness. 

I'm suggesting free will and no free will are the same thing. You may use the no free will label to try and point to consciousness dictating to those who perceive separation only, which does work. But when you see something as factually false you can blind yourself to it also being factually true. Depends how you look. 

Labels, just labels. Consciousness, free will, no free will, ego, tree, car, reality, etc...

It's quite a problem trying to convey silence with sound.

If we want to be accurate, then all we can say about it is this:

 

[Arcangelo]

Count me in the NO Free will camp.

I think you gotta have a good chunk of green in yourself to be able to embrace the paradox of free will-NO free will.