How do we know anything?

[andyjohnsonman]

Leo talks about understanding that he is everything and that he gave birth to himself - he is his mother as everything is consciousness.

If direct experience is just awareness free of thought how can he know those things for sure when they are stories created by the mind? Seems paradoxical.

I'm not having a go at Leo, it's more of an epistemological question as to how we can know anything. I'm sure many people will answer, "because you are looking for the answers from the mind not from awareness, if you look directly just from awareness then you will see."

Well how do we know that is the way to see things and not from thinking. All I've come to realise is that the mind creates stories and that being present in awareness is free from stories and therefore there is no knowing. 

 

Thoughts?

[Truth Addict]

21 minutes ago, David Hammond said:

@andyjohnsonman We don't know anything.

And yet, you seem very sure about that.

How do you know?

[andyjohnsonman]

Surely saying you dont know anything includes within it not knowing whether that statement is true?

[Preetom]

We don't.

We can only forcefully shove down all our knowledge down the throat and stay blind to it.

Edited March 22, 2019 by Preetom

[Truth Addict]

6 minutes ago, David Hammond said:

It's a thought born of not being able to locate the true essence of anything. 

No, it's not a thought, unless you let it become 

[ivankiss]

One does not have to know one does not know. Cut that loop; it's silly.

One must only become aware of the illusion. See through it.

And that requires no knowledge whatsoever. 

Edited March 22, 2019 by ivankiss

[Truth Addict]

7 minutes ago, David Hammond said:

@Truth Addict haha! For me it's a thought. Otherwise how would I know? 

You look in your direct experience in the present moment.

I look, I ask: do I know anything? I answer: of course not.

And so, there's the direct experience of not-knowing.

Of course I don't know.

Edited March 22, 2019 by Truth Addict

[andyjohnsonman]

So when Leo talks about all these highly advanced topics on what consciousness is, what god is etc they are essentially just stories created by his mind. We have to just be aware and as soon as a thought arises it becomes a story, hence a lot of what has been taught about the truth is a thought and therefore we don't know if it's true. Which would be the same if your mind comes up with "truths" based on thoughts after awareness. 

[andyjohnsonman]

I'm not having a dig at Leo or his videos I love them both.

[Truth Addict]

@andyjohnsonman

Realisation happens at a higher level than language and thoughts.

All of these concepts are stories to get you motivated to do the work.

So, do the work.

[andyjohnsonman]

Yea I agree his videos are exceptional for motivation in doing the work.

But how can you realise anything when all realisations are thoughts? Thats what i'm trying to tackle. It seems that all we have is awareness of what is. So how can you make claims that you gave birth to yourself and consciousness proceeds materialism, all of that is a thought/story. 

[Highest]

@andyjohnsonman Because 5-meo dmt is powerful stuff and it literally became his direct aware experience. And he became fully conscious and aware of it too. 

[Jkris]

@andyjohnsonman yes ignore those stories.Leo is wrong.Nobody is born.Nobody dies.It always is.Howz that ? :))

[andyjohnsonman]

10 minutes ago, Jkris said:

@andyjohnsonman yes ignore those stories.Leo is wrong.Nobody is born.Nobody dies.It always is.Howz that ? :))

that's also a story ?

Edited March 22, 2019 by andyjohnsonman

[Truth Addict]

2 hours ago, andyjohnsonman said:

Yea I agree his videos are exceptional for motivation in doing the work.

But how can you realise anything when all realisations are thoughts? Thats what i'm trying to tackle. It seems that all we have is awareness of what is. So how can you make claims that you gave birth to yourself and consciousness proceeds materialism, all of that is a thought/story. 

Exactly, that's when direct experience comes in play.

For example: if you look at a red apple, the colour red is your direct experience, you don't need to think: oh, this is an apple that has billions of cells and more billions of atoms, it reflects the light at some certain wavelengths to produce this colour experience.

You just know that you are experiencing it, without even labelling it. We don't need language to experience anything.

Likewise, you can observe your inner mind, the thoughts and the sensations, without having to think about them. Just observing them, that's what meditation basically is.

Don't worry about the stories, they're only here to motivate you.

Edited March 22, 2019 by Truth Addict

[Truth Addict]

@andyjohnsonman

Also, there is a basic assumption that you forget to question, and that is the subject-object duality.

We think that there is someone who perceives and something that is perceived, by the same realisation that you have (everything is a thought-story), you will see that this assumption has no ground whatsoever, and only one thing really exists, which is 'you'.

[andyjohnsonman]

I have questioned this duality as i have also questioned non duality. I haven't had any mystical states or non dual experiences although i had some intense mushroom meditation trips that gave me a feeling that there's more.  I'm basically saying that the stories the mind creates can be very deceptive and maybe even the subject-object duality being an illusion is also a story. I would love to be wrong tho. As of now i sit as an agnostic like a scientist but the difference being I am aware of the dogmas of the materialist paradigm. 

[andyjohnsonman]

I have questioned this duality as i have also questioned non duality. I haven't had any mystical states or non dual experiences although i had some intense mushroom meditation trips that gave me a feeling that there's more.  I'm basically saying that the stories the mind creates can be very deceptive and maybe even the subject-object duality being an illusion is also a story. I would love to be wrong tho. As of now i sit as an agnostic like a scientist but the difference being I am aware of the dogmas of the materialist paradigm. 

[Jkris]

@Truth Addict awareness is the knower. The objcets thoughts sensations feelings body etc are different from the subject isnt it? ?

[Truth Addict]

20 minutes ago, Jkris said:

@Truth Addict awareness is the knower. The objcets thoughts sensations feelings body etc are different from the subject isnt it? ?

We think so, but 'is'  it so?

Why do you think that there is something called awareness? Have you ever seen, heard, smelled, tasted, or touched it? Could it be just an assumption?

Why do you think that awareness is something other than the "objects"? It sure seems like this, but how do you know for sure?

What if they are not-two but rather One and the same?

Edited March 22, 2019 by Truth Addict