How to improve society's sense of justice?

[FoxFoxFox]

Maybe this isn't the exact place to post this, but I just want to share a piece of news I read today and invite a discussion. This doesn't involve enlightenment per se, but I want to demonstrate just how utterly dysfunctional society's morals, ethics, laws, and sense of justice can be. I won't mention names or places, just the story itself.

The oldest debtor of [REDACTED] state prison has been released after 20 years of imprisonment.

So this person, let's call them A, has been in prison for 20 years. They went inside at the age of 47 when their tissue manufacturing company went bankrupt and they were unable to pay their debts. They came out at the age of 67. Their family was unable to pay back their debt in the mean time, and no social organization could help either. Only after an unnamed charitable individual decided to help them could they manage to be released.

Now let me tell you how much money they owed: $14,500. Yes, you read that right. 5 figures. Less than 20k.

What moral code, what system of values equates 20 years of someone's life to that much money? 

But more importantly, how to fix this? I'm genuinely interested in people's opinions on solutions? What kind of restructuring do you think can help us avoid tragedies like this in the future?

Anything goes. I just want to hear people talk about this stuff.

 

[tenta]

You can't, they'd rather believe someone deserves 10 years of prison for owning a video of a mass shooting and won't change their minds no matter how clearly wrong they are, they're way too good at self-deception.

[FoxFoxFox]

@tenta Well no i do believe there can be change. Even now there are many countries where they have entirely different approaches to this stuff. Just look at Scandinavian countries. I want to know what sort of social doctrine results in that. 

[tsuki]

Law is not meant to be a mathematical system that expresses equality and justice.
Think of it more like a history record of people that want their interest to be protected.
It is based on consensus, not on efficiency. The main reason is just practicality.

Cases like these are heartbreaking, but unavoidable for the time being.
I suspect that it fell to a intersection of laws that do not mesh together too well.

What can be done about it? The best we can do is to pay $14,500, unfortunately.

[FoxFoxFox]

@tsuki Hmm well i believe if you want something to change, you should do something about it right away. You perfectly described the current model of justice and that model is exactly the issue. So what do you suggest a better model would be? Use your imagination. 

[winterknight]

1 hour ago, FoxFoxFox said:

Anything goes. I just want to hear people talk about this stuff.

There must be more to this story. Debtor imprisonment is not a thing anymore outside specialized circumstances (usually poor people with court-related fines that they can't pay). Bankruptcy releases you from debt.

(at least if we're talking about the US)

Edited March 20, 2019 by winterknight

[FoxFoxFox]

@winterknight We are not talking about US. The legal system here is nothing like the US, which is at least decently robust afaik.

[FoxFoxFox]

@winterknight I know you are a lawyer. The context of the story is not that important. I just want to hear your ideals of how a more just society would look like. What actionable steps can be taken to get there. What core societal values should be altered to produce such a change. That sort of thing. 

[now is forever]

@FoxFoxFox i‘d try to find a legal solution - maybe by finding an organisation with whom you can lounge a petition together to change that law - it depends on what democratic options you have, if we are talking about a democratic country.

[FoxFoxFox]

@now is forever What is the detail of this legal solution. What are the changes themselves that you would like to make.

[FoxFoxFox]

I know the question is very open ended. I'm not asking how you would change the specifics of your country's legal code. I'm asking how to improve people's sense of justice. How to improve forgiveness. How to reduce the tendency to hold grudges. How to change society from a rigid organization aimed at tyrannical efficiency, to an adaptable one that is based on improving people's lives and alleviating their actual grievances, rather than exacting impersonal revenge. 

Here's an example. One could reduce the number of superfluous laws by mandating a review for every law after every 5 years. If laws are not passed after this period, they would be automatically rejected.

Another example, and this is hardly an novel idea. You can alter prisons in such a way, that when a person is released after having server their term, their overall livelihood would be improved. For example by teaching them practical skills, and turning their prison terms into paid but mandatory jobs. 

[winterknight]

12 minutes ago, FoxFoxFox said:

@winterknight I know you are a lawyer. The context of the story is not that important. I just want to hear your ideals of how a more just society would look like. What actionable steps can be taken to get there. What core societal values should be altered to produce such a change. That sort of thing. 

The 'problem' is not at its core in any new steps or values we could come up with (though those can be interesting). The problem at its core is in the psyche. And how to change that? If it can be changed, it can happen only by the light of the Self. Spiritual freedom must spread. And it can only be spread by those whose minds are immersed in deep and total silence.

Edited March 20, 2019 by winterknight

[FoxFoxFox]

@winterknight Yes, I agree that the core of the problem is in the psyche. But can you give an example of how the unbroken experience of silence might help? Societal life requires accepting the hypothesis of the ego. How then, would this ego be better if it is purposefully adopted by an enlightened being? Can we expect such a person to be able to portray a constantly present sense of strong forgiveness?

Also, how best to bring enlightenment to a large group of people?

[now is forever]

@FoxFoxFox i‘d look into how other countries handle these issues.

i would probably set a minimum amount up to where a person has to go to prison and where they get a chance of paying the money back. i mean if someone pokers very high - i’d probably let them still go to prison. also i wonder what kind of company that was and why they where not in anyways secured by a limited or something comparable. it’s really not to say what happened behind the scenes there. 

[zambize]

3 minutes ago, winterknight said:

The 'problem' is not at its core in any new steps or values we could come up with (though those can be interesting). The problem at its core is in the psyche. And how to change that? If it can be changed, it can happen only by the light of the Self. Spiritual freedom must spread. And it can only be spread by those whose minds are immersed in deep and total silence.

I'm glad you're reaching out into more portions of the forums, you give some bomb ass answers.  I havent read your thread much because you do end up kind of sounding like a broken record after 150 pages of giving enlightenment advice.  But that isnt the case on threads around more specific issues.  It's cool to see what someone with a lot of spiritual experience thinks of more practical worldly issues 

[winterknight]

Just now, FoxFoxFox said:

@winterknight Yes, I agree that the core of the problem is in the psyche. But can you give an example of how the unbroken experience of silence might help? Societal life requires accepting the hypothesis of the ego. How then, would this ego be better if it is purposefully adopted by an enlightened being? Can we expect such a person to be able to portray a constantly present sense of strong forgiveness?

Also, how best to bring enlightenment to a large group of people?

I think the real answer is that to the pure, silent mind, the world effectively ceases to exist. The mind and body of such a one -- if they are hypothesized to exist -- then work in a completely different way, totally creatively and mysteriously. And in so doing they help the world in a way that cannot be conceptualized. I mean, people might try to interpret the actions of such a one, but such an interpretation -- with goals, ideas, values, etc. -- is not what actually drives that mind/body.

2 minutes ago, zambize said:

I'm glad you're reaching out into more portions of the forums, you give some bomb ass answers.  I havent read your thread much because you do end up kind of sounding like a broken record after 150 pages of giving enlightenment advice.  But that isnt the case on threads around more specific issues.  It's cool to see what someone with a lot of spiritual experience thinks of more practical worldly issues 

[FoxFoxFox]

@winterknight And thus would ultimately be of no use to a society that operates on an egoic level. We cannot realistically expect an entire society of millions to be enlightened overnight. Not being able to do it themselves, the other thing to do would be emulation. It is then the responsibility of the enlightened one to provide as crystal clear of a guideline of emulation as possible (if he cares to do so, of course). This is of course nothing new. Religions are nothing but an attempt at this.

[winterknight]

7 minutes ago, FoxFoxFox said:

@winterknight And thus would ultimately be of no use to a society that operates on an egoic level.

Actually, only they are really beneficial to a society that operates on the egoic level -- the ones who operate on a non-egoic level, who operate without pre-meditation, neither out of fear nor desire -- the ones who see no world, and whose minds are as if asleep even while waking.

Take it from Gandhi, quoted by Ramana Maharshi:

"How mysterious are the ways of God! This journey to Rajkot is a wonder even to me. Why am I going, whither am I going? What for? I have thought nothing about these things. And if God guides me, what should I think, why should I think? Even thought may be an obstacle in the way of His guidance. The fact is, it takes no effort to stop thinking. The thoughts do not come. Indeed there is no vacuum - but I mean to say that there is no thought about the mission.”

He wrote that at the height of his activism. The movement that happens spontaneously when the mind is in silent peace is the movement that is correct.

[Arhattobe]

@winterknight a lot of people exposed to the light of the self are still dicks. I was a dick post awakening. Many non dual teachers are. Sexual abuse scandals and all that. He’ll three of my teachers were dickies. 

That’s not the solution.

[winterknight]

8 minutes ago, Arhattobe said:

@winterknight a lot of people exposed to the light of the self are still dicks. I was a dick post awakening. Many non dual teachers are. Sexual abuse scandals and all that. He’ll three of my teachers were dickies. 

That’s not the solution.

I didn't speak merely of exposure but of the deeply quiet, fear- and desire-free mind. That is the key. There are plenty who have been exposed but whose minds are still noisy and unstable.