A "who am i" question

[Javad]

Hey guys

So in my contemplations about who i am i was thinking about an analogy and i got to a point where i can't clarify something. I'm hoping you can help.

So if we think of our properties like body as a car, is the mind the driver or consciousness? Cuz i feel like mind should be part of the car, and consciousness is the "me" behind the wheel. But at the same time consciousness doesn't do. It doesn't decide. It just "watches". So where is the mind and where is consciousness in this model? Could i be misinterpreting the model in the first place?

[ivankiss]

Consciousness is both driving and merely observing; doing nothing.

It is also what the vehicle is made of. The body is not a separate container for consciousness. It is an extension of it. An inseparable one.

The mind basically = your beliefs and thinking patterns. It is not only in the vehicle. It is everywhere around it, as well. 

And it can be desolved and/or reprogrammed, if you will.

[Truth Addict]

@Javad

Consciousness (driver) = concept.

Body (car) = concept.

We tend to think that there are two separate things, a subject and an object (observer and observation).

This if you notice is a concept. Remove that concept, what is your experience?

What if there are no subject and object?

In your experience, where is the subject (you)? Or is it just a concept?

In your experience, where is the object (other)? Or is it just a concept?

Could it be only one thing happening, and that we're believing the thoughts that say it's two things?

[Javad]

@Truth Addict oh!

I thought i intellectually understood enlightenment after all the things i learned, but as i was trying my best to think through what you said and imagine a no separation of subject and object, i realized i actually can't not separate them.

Is there a practice to focus on trying to see that perspective? I do meditation, but I'm not sure if I _even in my deepest states_ could NOT separate me and my thoughts/feelings/experiences and see with no me-and-other perspective

[Highest]

On 17/03/2019 at 4:05 PM, Javad said:

Hey guys

So in my contemplations about who i am i was thinking about an analogy and i got to a point where i can't clarify something. I'm hoping you can help.

So if we think of our properties like body as a car, is the mind the driver or consciousness? Cuz i feel like mind should be part of the car, and consciousness is the "me" behind the wheel. But at the same time consciousness doesn't do. It doesn't decide. It just "watches". So where is the mind and where is consciousness in this model? Could i be misinterpreting the model in the first place?

There is only one no-thing which exists. That one is the mover, the creator, the controller, the doer. That one is Everything and you can only become conscious or aware of it.

[Leo Gura]

@Javad In your analogy, the I AM/True Self/Witness/Consciousness/Absolute is the vacuum of empty space in which the car is located.

The mind is NOT the I AM. The mind will try to make itself feel and think that it is the I AM, so watch out! You must detach from all mind activity. That doesn't mean all mind activity must stop, it just means you must not identify with it.

What you are looking for is Nothingness. But it cannot be found using the mind. So how do you find it? There is no way, no method to get to it. A radical leap in consciousness is required. That comes naturally with lots of practice witnessing and observing your direct experience.

You must throw out all analogies. Enlightenment/Nothingness cannot be accessed via an analogy AT ALL. Every analogy is not it. You must become the Nothingness directly! It has to be totally direct. You cannot form an image or idea of it. Any idea you have of it is not it. This is why it's so frustrating and difficult.

Closest you can get to Nothingness via a technique is just sitting in silence with a very still mind.

[Paul92]

@Leo Gura So how do you know something exists if it's impossible to comprehend? Assuming nothingness is something, of course.

Edited April 3, 2019 by Paul92

[Leo Gura]

10 minutes ago, Paul92 said:

@Leo Gura So how do you know something exists if it's impossible to comprehend? Assuming nothingness is something, of course.

Well, nothingness is not something. And also it is (sorry for the Zen-speak)

Nothingness is existence itself. If you just sit with a quiet mind in silence you can sort of "feel" existence. Although feeling is not quite the right word. You can be conscious of existence.

Try this: just sit and focus your attention on the raw fact of existence itself. I don't mean on the existence of any particular object, but existence itself. Try to "lock on" to existence itself. Notice it has no shape. It has no form. It is not an object. Yet here it is! But WHAT IS IT? What is existence? Try to just sit and be "locked on" to that for 15 minutes with a very open mind. Don't theorize or speculate. Just observed what existence is. Have a very open mind free of any ideas, models, images, or theories about what existence is. Whatever existence is, it's right there in your direct experience. if you can't realize what it is using your direct experience, you will never realize it (not through books, videos, or teaching).

Can you sort of "feel" that existence is nothing? It is empty. Good. Now just sit with that. Focus on that emptiness. That is enlightenment, that is the True Self, that is the I AM, that is the Godhead.

Also notice that anything you say about pure existence itself is not accurate. Any description or qualification of it is not true because it is empty. It is so empty that even calling it "empty" is untrue! So what do you do? You just sit and observe it silently without too much thinking. Let it captivate you. Rather than being human, become it!

[Paul92]

@Leo Gura I see what you are saying. Yes, if I just sit and just actually consider why there is this thing, why there is colour, materials etc. I'm not sure if I would say that it feels empty...  it feels like there is something on the other side of it for me... something you can't touch but there is something there, a space with something there but I don't know what.

[Leo Gura]

@Paul92 You are still focusing on form: color, material, etc. Instead I'm telling you to focus on existence itself. Not any particular object, but just the pure fact of existence itself. What is that?

Existence itself is not a color, object, material, sound, feeling, thought, etc. It is not even an experience or a perception. What is it then?

[FoxFoxFox]

@Javad There is no correct answer to the "who I am" question. Let that sink in enough and then you realize. 

[RichardY]

“Consciousness”: Wheeler emphasizes the difficulty of making a general distinction between the form of information processing characteristic of humans, and that characteristic of various complex systems and devices that may or may not be “conscious”.  “The line between the unconscious and the conscious begins to fade…” he states; “We may someday have to enlarge the scope of what we mean by a ‘who’.”  The term who, he suggests, is too specific to man, life and consciousness; its anthropic connotations are anti-Copernican, while the concepts of life and consciousness are subject to revision as science advances. “It would seem more reasonable,” he suggests, “to dismiss for the present the semantic overtones of ‘who’ and explore and exploit the insights to be won from the phrases, ‘communication’ and ‘communication employed to establish meaning.’”21 - Christopher Langan, CTMU.

 

 

[Javad]

Thanks to everyone. Helped a lot.

Btw, as a food for the mind, check this way of explaining consciousness:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floating_man

@Leo Gura i can only SORTA get conscious of existence itself. I can't point out to it, can't pin it down, and i feel like that's cuz I'm too grounded in ego's perspective. I can't really not look at things without having a subject-object relationship

[Leo Gura]

12 minutes ago, Javad said:

Thanks to everyone. Helped a lot.

Btw, as a food for the mind, check this way of explaining consciousness:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floating_man

@Leo Gura i can only SORTA get conscious of existence itself. I can't point out to it, can't pin it down, and i feel like that's cuz I'm too grounded in ego's perspective. I can't really not look at things without having a subject-object relationship

Of course, otherwise you'd be enlightened and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Keep at it. Existence is no small thing to become conscious of. We are talking about ALL OF EXISTENCE here.

[Leo Gura]

There is only one who in the whole universe. And it is God.