Suffering Won't Get You Anywhere

[Joseph Maynor]

I would say that all suffering is triggered by the Ego-Mind, which is the Ego and the Mind.  The Mind mostly but not entirely serves the Ego, so it's useful to lump them together, but it's also useful to think of them as being separate things too depending on the context.  

Edited March 19, 2019 by Joseph Maynor

[Inliytened1]

@Joseph Maynor yes that is very true..so if you use the suffering that came from a large ego to become more conscious you will then grow.  So it is helping..though counterintuitively..as it should.

[EnlightenmentBlog]

On 3/18/2019 at 3:24 PM, mandyjw said:

There's also a difference between suffering and being aware of pain.

Suffering = pain x resistance

On 3/18/2019 at 3:24 PM, mandyjw said:

The ego identifies with what it wants or identifies with pain and doesn't know it is separate from those things it experiences.

Yes, suffering is self-created.

On 3/17/2019 at 2:39 PM, mandyjw said:

Suffering is nothing more than an indicator that we aren't in a conscious state. 

Why then in so many spiritual traditions is the emphasis on seeking suffering? Isn't that completely backwards? 

There is an emphasis on it precisely cos it's an indicator of awareness.

The tricky part is being mindful during suffering and accepting the pain. This is how real growth 

happens. Otherwise you might fall into the trap of avoiding pain cos it brings you suffering. 

You've discovered that with running.

On 3/17/2019 at 2:39 PM, mandyjw said:

Why do any method to "get" enlightened that makes you suffer? The suffering can only mean it isn't working for you. The trying can only mean that your doing it for the wrong reason. Why ever meditate or do any any other practice for any other reason than that it makes you feel good? Enlightenment is nothing you can work toward, you can only experience it now.

While this is theoretically true, in practice people don't get enlightened in a day. You have to do all the

practices really rigorously, or at least the ones that work for you. And believe me, you'll definitely

suffer. Meditation makes you feel good but only ones you've mastered it. Otherwise everybody 

would be meditating all the time.

 

On 3/17/2019 at 3:23 PM, mandyjw said:

@David Hammond Enlightenment is nothing other than the present moment. When thoughts subside there is nothing but consciousness which is also nothing but the present moment. There is no you, there is only consciousness, the present moment is never a trap. The present is all there ever is, everything else is conceptual and the concepts are the trap. Suffering is a concept made out of pain and it's a trap. Suffering can never be the goal. Suffering can never be the path. It can be the trail markers along the path, guiding you but it is not the path. 

Agree on the suffering part.

You have to try and understand @David Hammond. He's trying to tell you that there is something more

to enlightenment than the present moment. Have you ever thought that there might be degrees to 

On 3/18/2019 at 4:45 PM, David Hammond said:

Everything, including the self that "needs" these apparent things, are ideas, ideas that can never capture what is really there. For example the eyes see a "tree" and the ego needs to create a solid seperate entity and call it a tree. The tree is not actually a tree, but in order to function we have to call it something, and it has to be somewhere. So by creating the abstraction "tree" we make an ultimately unknowable and constantly changing process into a solid object that the mind made identity can relate to. 

enlightenment? Although you're present, you still distinguish between 'you' and everything else. 

On a subconscious, metaphysical level, you still believe you were born, you exist, you perceive the

world, etc. It's never that easy. Becoming present is just the beginning.

[mandyjw]

@EnlightenmentBlog It makes sense what you said that there's an emphasis on suffering because it's an indicator of awareness. But I think it's mistake to focus on suffering and not use suffering as just an indicator. I think some traditions sell a hope that people can permanently break through suffering by bringing it on and seeking it out, it's that future goal of salvation or some special state that just doesn't feel true to me. 

Possibly because I already went through all that with Christianity as a child. Future salvation and hope of a future heaven is a really easy idea to sell to people.

Heaven is now, available to anyone. Enter if you so please. Why is THAT message a harder sell? 

There's no beginning and no end, just presence. To the mind it looks like a journey and the journey is beautiful too, but in the end the journey is just a story and fiction just like our very selves. 

[EnlightenmentBlog]

@mandyjw That is correct.

Do you understand what we're trying to tell you, though?

I watched one of your videos on youtube (Can you hack your way into enlightenment or smth like that)

and I couldn't figure out whether you know that 'you' (the entity that thinks is reading this sentence) is

the ego. Not some separate part of 'you', but the whole 'you'. I don't know if that makes any sense to you.

As an ego, you have all these unquestioned beliefs, especially beliefs about reality - meta beliefs. You

perceive reality through your own prism of unconscious meta beliefs. For example, maybe you think

that you're smth behind your eyes looking at objects outside yourself, maybe you think reality is made

out of atoms or some other kind of particles, maybe you believe your family exists even if they're not present

with you now, etc. That way even though you're present and you're not suffering, you still perceive 

reality distorted, through the prism of your ego = 'you'. 

[Truth Addict]

@mandyjw  I agree with what @David Hammond had said.

There's no enlightenment, no present moment. All is a concept.

In my opinion, there's still some kind of attachment to ideas about suffering, and that it's somehow something negative, or has to be avoided (duality).

I myself still have a lot of work to do, I'm still nowhere near where I want to be. And yet, I'm fine with that.

Enlightenment is Truth-realisation, it's not a state.

But why is there suffering?

In my opinion, suffering is illusion. One cannot suffer from Truth.

So, everytime one suffers, it means they're not well-aligned with God.

That means, in order to find God, we must exclude what isn't God. And as you said, suffering is the indicator.

[mandyjw]

@EnlightenmentBlog I know that the you and the I is the ego. I understand what you're trying to tell me, but I reject and don't want that future state, because future is the barrier to my being enlightened. There's no such thing as enlightenment, you are already enlightened. I believe that what reincarnation really means is that you become enlightened, have an enlightenment experience, whether it's a passing moment washing dishes or an intense out of body experience, then fall back into thought again, process the experience, remember the experience, remember that you have to do the laundry and pay bills. An enlightened person can choose to think, and chooses thoughts that serve them in life and then they can choose not to think and enter presence. I have to have a "me" and have beliefs about reality in order to function and live my life. When they cause me to suffer I question them. When I want to be present and experience reality fully, I can forget them. They don't exist in that moment.

The problem with many on this path is that they "wake up" out of presence and see the dirty dishes and identify with the them and the dishes being separate and they say, "oh my God, I did it again, I fell off the ox, I'm not enlightened". What that is is adding one more layer of separation and ego than was already there before! The only thing perpetuating that is the belief of future and expectation of a future state that doesn't even exist for anyone! 

I have no interest in permanently dying or killing myself before I die. I have an interest in playing the game when it serves me, detaching from it as much as I possibly can and enjoying the forms and things life gives me because I know the only way you can ever enjoy anything is by knowing that they can never fulfill you and aren't even real. I enjoy my perceptions. My perceptions are God too. 

I've already done this, I've been through it. I threw my ego in the trash and said, "we're done you and me." And then I started acting in ways that I conceptually thought a ego free person should act. I wasn't allowed to want anything, wasn't supposed to get too caught up in enjoying things. I still had plenty of negative thoughts though. 

I don't need to do anything or believe anything at all to evolve, my life is my path. Realizations are coming on their own everyday. I love this dream of form. it's all pretend, the other people I talk to and relate with are just a part of me, a mirror of me. But I love them and enjoy our interactions. The dream, the illusion the ego, the self the I is just this layer or veil of beauty. The mystery and not knowing what's all underneath or what may unfold is the fun in life. 

Life is a lot more fun when you stop creating a duality between your true self and ego. Just enjoy the moment. That's all that's here for you. That's the true meaning of dying to self. Don't you see you're seeking your self in the future? 

[mandyjw]

@Truth Addict If not now, when?

[Truth Addict]

2 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

@Truth Addict If not now, when?

Suffering also happens in the now.

[mandyjw]

@Truth Addict Suffering happens in your mind. A lot of it is future expectation of suffering. When you identify with the mind or with suffering you aren't in the now. 

[Truth Addict]

2 minutes ago, mandyjw said:

@Truth Addict Suffering happens in your mind. A lot of it is future expectation of suffering. When you identify with the mind or with suffering you aren't in the now. 

Not possible. I always am in the now.

You see? I still am the same, whether I identify with the illusion or the now.

The content changes all the time, but what does not change?

[mandyjw]

You can conceptualize the present moment, just like past and future never exist as anything BUT concepts. To fully experience the present moment, there is no thought, not self. That's all enlightenment is. Just do that. When you stop doing it and feel pain, you know you fell back into thought and then go do it again. That's all there is. 

This work is not special in any way.

I've run into old people who are 99% enlightened without knowing what the hell any of these concepts are or giving any thought to whether their brain actually exists or whether it's only a concept or whether or not if a tree falls in the woods and no one hears it that it makes no sound. People did this all the time in the past without knowing what it was. Now that we have technology and have sped up thought so much we have to work harder and have to have exciting concepts like enlightenment and gurus to emulate to give us motivation.

[mandyjw]

5 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

Not possible. I always am in the now.

You see? I still am the same, whether I identify with the illusion or the now.

The content changes all the time, but what does not change?

The true part of you is but you split yourself so you aren't FULLY in the now. The now is not a concept. Enlightenment is not a concept. The experience is the thing. 

[Truth Addict]

@mandyjw

I can't think of something that is not a concept, that's what thinking originally means.

If I think of nothing, this "nothing" becomes a thing, a thought.

I know what you're pointing to, but I'm implying something more nuanced, which cannot be pointed to.

[Zigzag Idiot]

In Talks on Beelzebub's Tales, Bennett distinguishes four types of suffering - Unnecessary Suffering, Unavoidable Suffering, Voluntary Suffering and Intentional Suffering.

The first is Unnecessary Suffering. This would be the type of suffering that we incur because of our unreasonable attitudes and expectations towards others, from our ill-will, hatred and rejection of others, from doubt, possessiveness, arrogance and self pity. In other words, suffering arising from our self-importance.

The second is Unavoidable Suffering. This would be the type of suffering that comes to us by accident or from events beyond our control, such as interpersonal conflicts, war, disaster, disease or death.

Third, we have Voluntary Suffering. This would be the type of suffering that we take upon ourselves in order to accomplish a personal aim, such as an athlete who disciplines himself to win a race, or a student who labours to get good grades.

And finally we have Intentional Suffering. According to Bennett, this would be the kind of suffering that we take upon ourselves in order to accomplish an impersonal or altruistic goal, one that is directed more towards service to others or to the Work, and not for any personal gain. Bennett assumes that this is what Gurdjieff meant by Intentional Suffering.

[EnlightenmentBlog]

@mandyjw Fair enough  

Good for you.

[Dumb Enlightened]

On 17/03/2019 at 9:39 AM, mandyjw said:

 

Why do any method to "get" enlightened that makes you suffer? The suffering can only mean it isn't working for you. The trying can only mean that your doing it for the wrong reason. Why ever meditate or do any any other practice for any other reason than that it makes you feel good? Enlightenment is nothing you can work toward, you can only experience it now. 

That's really interesting, it was something that I realized . My last practice and something I still do, Is to sit and relax, Just relax the focus of attention, If Enlightenment is our true nature it's obviously here already right ? So what is more natural than a relaxed state. Now I'm relaxed almost all the time, but I still do this purposefully, a couple hours a day I just sit and relax, or while taking a walk

It's like, when you are nothing looking for it, it shows up to you

[Jack River]

Suffering and ‘getting somewhere’ are best friends ?