How to release Trauma?

[Alex]

@Salvijus How can you say that it is random with such confidence? 

https://youtu.be/y4aHEqEJ8Ys

[Truth Addict]

6 hours ago, Salvijus said:

What you call as yourself or your personality is just a collection of memories and impressions that you've gathered. So if you experience traumatic memories that's what you become in theory.

I was trying to make a point that trauma is not a thought, but rather it's hiding between thoughts.

The guy was asking how to release trauma, and I was trying to point him to the source of his traumas.

The trauma must be felt in the present moment as some kind of negative feeling or sensation, and if it's not present, then why even trying to release something that doesn't exist?

I believe that the trauma he's trying to release is a mere thought at the most.

Sure, it can be deeper, and other methods can help, but that's how I deal with it and it works for me.

6 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

Rational thinking and conceptualizing is not trauma and it is not available during a traumatic experience.

And yet, they can show how much trauma one could have possibly acquired over the years.

In practice, traumas end right after the traumatic events end.

What's left is just memories, and those are what makes one suffer.

So, a good indicator for spotting one's wrong ways to deal with trauma is their own thinking.

The ego protects itself from trauma by creating walls of thoughts and feelings, layer after layer, until one is completely convinced that external events could actually affect the Self.

And for one to release trauma, they need to break down those walls, and go back to the source.

There's peace.

[kieranperez]

7 hours ago, Salvijus said:

What you call as yourself or your personality is just a collection of memories and impressions that you've gathered. So if you experience traumatic memories that's what you become in theory.

Feel free to keep quoting Sadhguru.

Your ignorance of other people’s suffering is pathetic and honestly regressive.

People who have been in say the military or have been raped can have levels of PTSD that you clearly cannot appreciate. 

The absolute wrong advice 99% for those people would be what you’re advising. You don’t tell someone whose suicidal whose ready to jump off a bridge or put a gun in their mouth from years of legitimate trauma that it’s their fault in creating all these mental stories or even that they need to love themselves. Grow up and get out of your naïve nondual fantasy bubble.

7 hours ago, Serotoninluv said:

Trauma goes much much deeper than mental memories. That is just one component. The theory of trauma aint it. Those without the direct experience will not truly understand and know it. 

With that said, there is a spectrum of trauma severity. I think some people refer to lower intensity micro traumas as being trauma. 

100% can concur with this in my own life and including in even just my last girlfriend. 

1 hour ago, Truth Addict said:

In practice, traumas end right after the traumatic events end.

What's left is just memories, and those are what makes one suffer.

So, a good indicator for spotting one's wrong ways to deal with trauma is their own thinking.

The ego protects itself from trauma by creating walls of thoughts and feelings, layer after layer, until one is completely convinced that external events could actually affect the Self.

And for one to release trauma, they need to break down those walls, and go back to the source.

There's peace.

Yes and no. Overall this is far too simplistic. Everybody is wired different. Some people can cope with certain types of trauma better than others for reasons that have yet to get any sort of valid explanation. I’ll use a popular internet self help icon for this, David Goggins. I know plenty of people who’ve dealt with what Goggins has gone through in life and they don’t end up like that or anywhere close. Hint: it’s not they just sucked it up. We’re all extremely different in how we’re wired. 

“Rational objective thinking” (still all emotional & subjective but don’t want to open that hornets nest because I know what you’re trying to say) I found is only really possible once you’ve opened up to the pain itself. That right there, depending on how you’re going about it can take years. Which is why talking about this is hard because saying all this in terms of a linear sequential process is not really how it tend to turn out in the real world. You’ve gotta work with layers and layers of defense mechanisms and reconciling and eventually busting through those and how fast or how hard do you bull your way through it? This is where this stuff become very gray because we’re all different from our current levels of self love, emotional intelligence, self esteem, current capacity to tolerate pain/suffering, how much shit has gone in our lives, etc. 

Retracing though, I found I can only look back at the traumas in my life “objectively” once I’ve been able to really open myself up to it to begin with. You can have a solid and thorough understanding of the battle field until you’ve scoped it all out. 

Edited March 13, 2019 by kieranperez

[Salvijus]

@Truth Addict i see what you mean. Makes sense. ?

17 hours ago, Alex said:

@Salvijus How can you say that it is random with such confidence? 

https://youtu.be/y4aHEqEJ8Ys

It's just a gut feeling

Well..... First of all, that tingling sensation in shamanic breathing has nothing to do with releasing blckages. 

Second of all, win hof is using totally different breath pattern then Leo. Maybe his method is not so random.

Third, you see. Unless a realized being who knows how human system works 100% comes and says do this this and this and then you'll get this kind of results. Yes, i can trust him, that's no longer a random stuff created by random people. That's a very scientific stuff now. 

But now Leo comes. He knows absolutely nothing nothing nothing when it comes to human system. He says. I dont like this and that. I will add my own random stuff. I will modify things randomly to my own convenience. And that's it. Here it goes. Here's my techeque for you to release trauma. Lol.... that's totally random.  You experience some dizzyness and tingling sensations and you think wow it works. But it has nothing to do with trauma lol

Now whether win hof's methods is random or not idk. It depends whether you trust him. Whether you trust that he's a realized being like osho or sadhguru or not. I personally don't but that's a personal judgement everybody makes for themselfs.

That's why i recommend doing osho dynamic meditation. At least he knew 100% what he was doing. And it was designed just for that purpse to release trauma.

Edit: here wim hof literally admitted that he just comes up with random techneques while shitting.

 

Edited March 13, 2019 by Salvijus

[kieranperez]

7 minutes ago, Salvijus said:

 

It's just a gut feeling

Well..... First of all, that tingling sensation in shamanic breathing has nothing to do with releasing blckages. 

Second of all, win hof is using totally different breath pattern then Leo. Maybe his method is not so random.

Third, you see. Unless a realized being who knows how human system works 100% comes and says do this this and this and then you'll get this kind of results. Yes, i can trust him, that's no longer a random stuff created by random people. That's a very scientific stuff now. 

But now Leo comes. He knows absolutely nothing nothing nothing when it comes to human system. He says. I dont like this and that. I will add my own random stuff. I will modify things randomly to my own convenience. And that's it. Here it goes. Here's my techeque for you to release trauma. Lol.... that's totally random. 

Now whether win hof's methods is random or not idk. It depends whether you trust him. Whether you trust that he's a realized being like osho or sadhguru or not. I personally don't but that's a personal judgement everybody makes for themselfs.

That's why i recommend doing osho dynamic meditation. At least he knew 100% what he was doing. And it was designed just for that purpse to release trauma.

 

Translation: I like to project my own expectations, judgments, and assumptions onto Leo who tends to call me out on my thick headed ness anyways 

[Truth Addict]

@kieranperez

No. It’s actually "that" simple.

And the more we think about it, the worse it gets.

You see? The more theory we accumulate on how to release trauma, the more obstacles we create to get there.

Thinking is the single biggest obstacle to releasing trauma. So, how is creating a problem going to resolve it?

It all boils down to this: trauma is a thought or a negative sensation, or a combination of both.

The "methods" are no more than a lubricant, but the true work is questioning to death whatever thing you want to resolve.

Questioning is the key.

No method and no one can do it for you. Only you.

Edited March 13, 2019 by Truth Addict

[kieranperez]

5 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

@kieranperez

No. It’s actually "that" simple.

And the more we think about it, the worse it gets.

You see? The more theory we accumulate on how to release trauma, the more obstacles we create to get there.

Thinking is the single biggest obstacle to releasing trauma. So, how is creating a problem going to resolve it?

It all boils down to this: trauma is a thought or a negative sensation, or a combination of both.

The "methods" are no more than a lubricant, but the true work is questioning to death whatever thing you want to resolve.

Questioning is the key.

No method and no one can do it for you. Only you.

Lol pro tip: don’t go into the business of helping people with their trauma. You’re just going to cause more damage from your own ignorance. Your “understanding” (and that’s a compliment after that dribble) is mayopic. 

Edited March 13, 2019 by kieranperez

[Truth Addict]

5 minutes ago, kieranperez said:

Lol pro tip: don’t go into the business of helping people with their trauma. You’re just going to cause more damage from your own ignorance. Your “understanding” (and that’s a compliment after that dribble) is mayopic. 

Maybe at least they learn how to become ignorant like myself. And therefore find resolution.

[SunnyNewDay]

Trauma release is going to be different for everyone. It isn't going to just require meditating to release usually and can take years to work through and process. All I can speak from is my own experience. Perhaps there are some who can just pick up some meditation technique and become all philosophical and resolves but considering where most of society is I'd say this is not a particularly effective way to approach trauma. That isn't to say meditation isn't needed but is usually only one part and the technique can vary greatly. 

For me a few important things I have found to help release trauma. 

- Being completely honest about how I feel. This can be done by building emotional awareness and getting in touch with them. If you are suppressing your emotions it's going to be hard to work on them. Same with thoughts. I've found a sort of radically honest journaling can really just let out some stuff but be prepared. If it is super personal stuff you don't want anyone reading you can burn the pages after in a controlled environment and even structure it as a release of sorts. 

- Breathing. For me shamanic breathing has played a part where it has opened me up emotionally. I don't really prioritize it as much in my life these days but I think I should reconsider this. 

- Doing something you're proud of outside of trauma healing. I've found taking up a skill or hobby I can be proud of and practicing it regularly can really help me feel better and also increase my discipline ability. It's important to have these sort of passions or "big rocks" I like to call them. Important things in your life that add value and grow you. For me it is fitness and weight lifting. 

- Faith. This is something that I find I often can forget to practice and it feels a bit mystical at times but it is actually incredibly powerful and I've noticed for me was missing and keeping me from making progress. I have faith and I pray sometimes. I admit to myself I am powerless and I ask what is greater than me to please listen and help me in the wisest of ways. Life felt so empty before I started practicing faith and praying. This is still new to me but I've had a few moments before where I called on faith and it answered my call. I've realized it's something I should do more regularly. I'm powerless without faith. Mindful surrendering and praying is very powerful. 

Edited March 13, 2019 by SunnyNewDay

[Annoynymous]

11 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

I don't know. 

To me, the past is mere memories (imagination), so, in my first hand experience there's no trauma.

I have felt it in my present moment like thousand times... It feels like you are alive but at the same time dead inside, sometimes it felt like inside me there is a burned house which still smell like shit. All these understanding are metaphoric.

[Annoynymous]

5 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

I was trying to make a point that trauma is not a thought, but rather it's hiding between thoughts.

The guy was asking how to release trauma, and I was trying to point him to the source of his traumas.

The trauma must be felt in the present moment as some kind of negative feeling or sensation, and if it's not present, then why even trying to release something that doesn't exist?

I believe that the trauma he's trying to release is a mere thought at the most.

Sure, it can be deeper, and other methods can help, but that's how I deal with it and it works for me.

And yet, they can show how much trauma one could have possibly acquired over the years.

In practice, traumas end right after the traumatic events end.

What's left is just memories, and those are what makes one suffer.

So, a good indicator for spotting one's wrong ways to deal with trauma is their own thinking.

The ego protects itself from trauma by creating walls of thoughts and feelings, layer after layer, until one is completely convinced that external events could actually affect the Self.

And for one to release trauma, they need to break down those walls, and go back to the source.

There's peace.

In some certain sense you are maybe true, but you wont understand it if you don't have the experience of the thing itself.

Trauma literally cripples people. When it happens, u get numb. When it passes, u remain numb. Do you know why? Because you dont find any strength within you to fight this, so better staying numb then try to fight it and die! It literally feels like this when you experience Trauma. Your words here are not going to help any traumatic person, hell it can create damage to them as you are somehow pointing to them that they are somehow responsible for it.

Self love is difficult when you go through trauma. Your response like this will make them feel they are not worthy of self love even more.

Higher consciousness things are fine when you are in high consciousness. But you have to understand where things are applicable and where not. A person who is not high conscious and traumatized will interpret your words entirely differently, thus creating more problems for them.

[Truth Addict]

@Annoynymous

If you find my advice not helpful, throw them in the trash. I'm fine.

I hope you find peace really soon.

For the record, I've survived in a city where war had taken place for over 6 years, if that's what you consider trauma, not to mention all the dangers of it, or how I and my family survived a drone attack and lots of mortar attacks, and several bombing attacks, and other dangerous situations.

I used to live in a big family and I used to have a lot of friends, and now most of them are immigrants, out of my country, and some of them are dead.

And that's nothing, I haven't even started yet.

So, in conclusion, I don't know what you're going through, and I'm sure it feels like hell, but that's my experience, and only surrendering and acceptance will get you through.

Good luck!

I do recommend these two videos:

If you feel like it's too hard and painful, that's pretty normal, labour has never been easy.

Edited March 13, 2019 by Truth Addict

[Annoynymous]

31 minutes ago, Truth Addict said:

@Annoynymous

If you find my advice not helpful, throw them in the trash. I'm fine.

I hope you find peace really soon.

For the record, I've survived in a city where war had taken place for over 6 years, if that's what you consider trauma, not to mention all the dangers of it, or how I and my family survived a drone attack and lots of mortar attacks, and several bombing attacks, and other dangerous situations.

I used to live in a big family and I used to have a lot of friends, and now most of them are immigrants, out of my country, and some of them are dead.

And that's nothing, I haven't even started yet.

So, in conclusion, I don't know what you're going through, and I'm sure it feels like hell, but that's my experience, and only surrendering and acceptance will get you through.

Good luck!

I do recommend these two videos:

If you feel like it's too hard and painful, that's pretty normal, labour has never been easy.

Love for you my friend <3 I hope you will do well too.

[Truth Addict]

@Annoynymous ?

[Forestluv]

11 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

And yet, they can show how much trauma one could have possibly acquired over the years.

To my knowledge, there is no metric to objectively quantify accumulated trauma. If one exists, it would be a major breakthrough in this area and I would be very interested in leaning more about it.

11 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

In practice, traumas end right after the traumatic events end.

What's left is just memories, and those are what makes one suffer.

This is a very limited view. Memories are one component within a highly complex integrated network. Memories stored in the hypothalamus are just one piece of the puzzle. For example, hypothalamic memories are integrated within the limbic system. There is also inter-connectiveness with the HPA axis (which regulates stress), the DMN (which regulates self identity) and the PFC (an area of rational thinking). As well, trauma causes widespread epigenetic alterations that change gene expression in the brain - for years after the trauma. Hypothalamic memories are an important component, yet we can’t isolate it from the holistic integrated system. Traumatic events cause widespread alterations in various biological components. Neuroscientists are now developing techniques to erase memories. This may alleviate the severity of the long-term traumatic effects, yet it will not erase it. Not even close. That’s like looking at someone who just got hit by a train and saying “If we can just erase his memory of the collision, he will be alright”.

11 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

So, a good indicator for spotting one's wrong ways to deal with trauma is their own thinking.

The ego protects itself from trauma by creating walls of thoughts and feelings, layer after layer, until one is completely convinced that external events could actually affect the Self.

And for one to release trauma, they need to break down those walls, and go back to the source.

There's peace.

This is starting to expand a bit, yet is still very contracted. What is referred to here of “the ego” is much more complex and expansive than what you alluded to.  From a psychological self perspective, the protective mechanism you describe is one of the keys for therapy - in particular to raise one’s awareness of underlying mind-body dynamics of thought patterns and emotions. Yet we need to go a conscious level higher and become aware of the inter-relationship of those thoughts / feelings with systems of seeking energy, identification  and attachment. As well, there are both mental memories and body memory to deal with.

As well, there are other components when we go to a higher conscious level and observe negative traumatic effects on energetic systems such as empathy and intuition. And this is all at the individual level. The next higher levels consider the impact of traumatic events on inter-personal consciousness and the collective consciousness. People are like neutransmitters to each other in a higher order collective “brain”. Trauma has an impact at this level as well. 

And the immaterial is integrated with the material. For example, how do all the above factors relate to altered gene methylation patterns? And how are these epigenetic changes maintained for years? . . . You mention that trauma ends after the event. Then how would you explain trauma-induced epigenetic changes that last for years? And did you know these trauma-induced epigenetic changes can be passed on to children? If trauma is simply memories, how would you explain a child inheriting aspects of their parent’s the trauma? The young child didn’t experience it, has no memories and doesn't even have an ego yet! It all happened before they were even born.

Lastly, every individual and collective consciousness is different. There is no one size fits all modality. What works for one individual/collective may not work for another. One person may work through trauma fairly smoothly and may actually become empowered by it. They may help others. Another person with similar trauma events may have severe PTSD and be repeatedly retraumatized. Another person may undergo brain injury with lesions. A holistic perspective integrates generalities with uniqueness.

[Truth Addict]

@Serotoninluv

I'm not gonna pretend that I am the most knowledgeable guy on earth.

I actually have never read about any neuroscience research on this topic.

But I only speak from my experience, and that is trauma does not exist.

I could agree with everything you said, and all the research that is being done on this topic, but what I know for sure is that direct experience is king, and I can't believe that we're even discussing this.

Wasn't obvious that I was speaking about the direct experience of traumas? Because I truly was.

All the research is appreciated, but only direct experience is what matters.

They could invent pills for these purposes in the future, but telling these information to someone who actually thinks that traumas are real, is just gonna make them feel even more real.

So, I suggest we just go back to the basics and let the rest for the guy to decide what is best for him.

And by the way, thank you for sharing these information.

[Forestluv]

3 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

@Serotoninluv

But I only speak from my experience, and that is trauma does not exist.

I could agree with everything you said, and all the research that is being done on this topic, but what I know for sure is that direct experience is king, and I can't believe that we're even discussing this.

Wasn't obvious that I was speaking about the direct experience of traumas? Because I truly was.

All the research is appreciated, but only direct experience is what matters.

Yes, I understand there is a personality dynamic that believes it is simply speaking from personal direct experience. Yet there is an extrapolation of personal direct experience into broader truths that apply to others. This is a conflation of the relative with the universal. Once this was revealed in the thread, there was a shift in tone and an expansion of consciousness.

The comments offered here are impersonal. They are not directed at you personally. They are observations of what appears to me as a common contracted mind dynamic that when deconstructed can lead to consciousness expansion.  

3 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

@Serotoninluv

Wasn't obvious that I was speaking about the direct experience of traumas? Because I truly was.

No it wasn't at all. The below statements are broad statements of application that extend beyond one's personal direct experience onto others.

15 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

I was trying to make a point that trauma is not a thought, but rather it's hiding between thoughts.

The guy was asking how to release trauma, and I was trying to point him to the source of his traumas.

The trauma must be felt in the present moment as some kind of negative feeling or sensation, and if it's not present, then why even trying to release something that doesn't exist?

And yet, they can show how much trauma one could have possibly acquired over the years.

In practice, traumas end right after the traumatic events end.

What's left is just memories, and those are what makes one suffer.

So, a good indicator for spotting one's wrong ways to deal with trauma is their own thinking.

The ego protects itself from trauma by creating walls of thoughts and feelings, layer after layer, until one is completely convinced that external events could actually affect the Self.

And for one to release trauma, they need to break down those walls, and go back to the source.

telling these information to someone who actually thinks that traumas are real, is just gonna make them feel even more real.

These statements are not limited to a personal experience. They are universal statements. They literally describe what trauma means for other people. Observe how a personal direct experience is extrapolated to apply to others.  I am revealing that that is a very limited and contracted view. The exact opposite of your relative direct experience may occur in someone else's direct experience. Or hundreds of different forms than that of your own. Lack of awareness and acceptance of this relativity will restrain a mind within one limited perspective. In terms of spiral dynamics this is an absolute key in evolving from the Orange level to the Yellow level.

Trauma is highly complex in relative terms and there is no objective statements of trauma that can be universally applied. As described above, severe trauma effects the individual and collective in various ways. For one person, trauma may end after the event and recovery may simply be letting go of memories. For another, trauma may have widespread effects. Memory may be just one piece of the puzzle. Multiple physical and nonphysical systems may be effected and the traumatic effects may persist for years.  The person may be re-traumatized repeatedly. Traumatic effects can even be passed on to children. . . I am intentionally using terms like "may be" and "can be" to reinforce that this is not always the case. What may be good advice for one person may be horrible advice for another person.

In the big picture, both research and direct experience matter. Their integration forms a more holistic perspective. 

[Truth Addict]

I don't want to argue with you, because I agree with the general idea.

But here:

1 hour ago, Serotoninluv said:

The person may be re-traumatized repeatedly. There can be brain injuries including neuronal death. Traumatic effects can even be passed on to children.

I understand that neuronal damage is highly irreversible (at least right to this moment). Are you saying that releasing emotional blockages can create new neuronal cells? I mean it certainly could, but has it been practically proven?

..

I already told you, I agree with the whole research and views on traumas, but that does not make it real by any measure, which I think you're unintentionally trying to do.

I'm talking about the root cause of all trauma, which comes of course from my own experience, which I believe applies to everyone, because if I don't believe so, then there is no point of even talking about it. Right?

And what you were saying is completely on accordance with what I said earlier. It's just that you think it wasn't. For example:

1 hour ago, Serotoninluv said:

Trauma is highly complex in relative terms and there is no objective statements of trauma that can be universally applied. As described above, severe trauma effects the individual and collective in various ways. For one person, trauma may end after the event and recovery may simply be letting go of memories. For another, trauma may have widespread effects. Memory may be just one piece of the puzzle. Multiple physical and nonphysical systems may be effected and the traumatic effects may last years and decades.  The person may be re-traumatized repeatedly. There can be brain injuries including neuronal death. Traumatic effects can even be passed on to children.

Doesn't all of that stem from lack of awareness? Isn't awareness a universal quality?

And by the way, why aren't you considering extreme joy as a sort of trauma? It could also affect the brain and get stuck in memory.

What is trauma exactly but a thought?

You see? We're talking different categories.

I went right through to the heart of the issue, which is lack of awareness (within) (notice that I didn't reject the without), while you insist that the problem and solution could be without and within (and sometimes without the within).

It's basically the same thing as the following:

Could psychedelics make you enlightened? Possibly.

Do they always make one enlightened? No.

Therefore, psychedelics are not "the" path towards enlightenment, sure they can be a vehicle, a boost, a lubricant, whatever, but they're certainly not the path.

The same goes for neuroscience and trauma. They can invent pills or whatever, yet the work still has to be done, awareness is just not gonna expand by external elements, or at least that's what I know.

...

Trust me, I might be one of the rare people on here with highly-rich traumatic history, more than most of you have been through or could even possibly imagine.

I have overcome a very deep depression that had lasted over 7 years, and I have suffered through a war that had lasted over 6 years, and I'm still struggling with the consequences of the war, which hadn't ended yet in other parts of my country, I had overcome a strong OCD that had lasted over 5 years, so I think I know a lot about trauma.

As for this:

1 hour ago, Serotoninluv said:

The comments offered here are impersonal. They are not directed at you personally.

Don't worry about me, I can handle criticism, be 100% comfortable with criticising me, because I am interested in growing myself.

I hope my communication was clear, I'm sorry if it wasn't, because I'm not a native speaker, and I'm struggling to communicate my ideas online.

[Forestluv]

2 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

I understand that neuronal damage is highly irreversible (at least right to this moment). Are you saying that releasing emotional blockages can create new neuronal cells? I mean it certainly could, but has it been practically proven?

If it is neuronal death, it's dead and irreversible. For example with spinal cord injuries or exposure to highly neurotoxic chemicals like methamphetamine. Neuronal damage can take many forms. The healing potential depends on the type of damage. For example, a neuron can suffer loss of neurites - these are neuronal extensions that communicate with other neurons. As well, there can be loss of neural plasticity - this is the ability of neural networks to rewire to allow learning and new perspectives. Neurotrophic factors stimulate the formation of new neurites and increase neuronal plasticity, yet we haven't developed effective ones that can cross the blood-brain barrier. Recently psychedelics have been shown to act a neurotrophic factors in cell culture and in mice. They are part of a new class of molecules referred to as psychoplastogens. . . As well, meditation has been shown to increase grey matter. For example, in a region of the brain associated with empathy. Even people that had never meditated in there life showed increased grey matter after eight weeks of a meditation program. This grey matter increase represents formation of neurite extensions and is reflective of enhanced abilities. For example, the new meditators showing increased grey matter would be correlated with an increased ability of empathy. 

Regarding the creation of new neuronal cells. . . Differentiated neuronal cells have exited the cell cycle and no longer divide. There are a very small number of adult neural stem cells that have the capacity to re-enter the cell cycle and create new neurons. Yet, we currently do not understand this mechanism.

There has not been a lot of research regarding the effect of releasing emotional blockages on neural health. I think this is a wonderful area of research to explore. I believe this is an unexplored region for two reasons: First, releasing emotional blockages is still within the areas of psychological therapy, meditation, yoga, reiki etc. Neuroscience is still contracted within a reductionist and materialist paradigm. They are expanding, yet it is slow. Second, I believe science has become more and more influenced by corporations and capitalism. Most research funding is dominated by utility. What scientific gadget can we create and profit off of? What profitable new drugs can we develop? Even nonprofit academic research institutions are restrained by this. Studies involving the neuroscience of meditation, emotional blockage release, reiki etc. just aren't profitable and aren't funded. Hopefully as the collective consciousness increases, so will this type of funding. In particular from highly conscious wealthy donors.

2 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

I already told you, I agree with the whole research and views on traumas, but that does not make it real by any measure, which I think you're unintentionally trying to do.

I'm talking about the root cause of all trauma, which comes of course from my own experience, which I believe applies to everyone, because if I don't believe so, then there is no point of even talking about it. Right?

This would depend on our definition of "trauma" and "real". I am using the term trauma in a holistic perspective that includes both the immaterial energetic systems and material systems. To see if we are using the term "real" in the same context. . . Imagine a person is being chased by an aggressive dog. The person's mind is hyper alert. There body is breathing heavily and filled with hormones creating stress. Would you consider that heavy breathing and that hormonal stress response the body is experiencing as being "real". I do. And if we agree that it is real, then I see no way that one can conclude that traumatic experiences have real effects that can persist for years.

2 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

I'm talking about the root cause of all trauma, which comes of course from my own experience, which I believe applies to everyone, because if I don't believe so, then there is no point of even talking about it. Right?

  I think we may be using different usages of the term trauma. If you could explain how you are using the term trauma it would help me. I am using the term to include both the immaterial, such as energetic systems (chakras, energetic blocks, meridians, intuition etc) as well as material biological systems (neurotransmitters, hormones etc). Together, they would yield mind-body sensations referred to as anxiety, panic, stress and terror. I think an integration of both immaterial and material is necessary for a holistic view of trauma and removing one would yield an incomplete perspective at the human mind-body level. 

2 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

Could psychedelics make you enlightened? Possibly.

Do they always make one enlightened? No.

Therefore, psychedelics are not "the" path towards enlightenment, sure they can be a vehicle, a boost, a lubricant, whatever, but they're certainly not the path.

I don't see "enlightenment" as a thing and I don't see a "you" in enlightenment. I don't see a path to "enlightenment" because there is no place for a path to lead to. The One Everything/Nothing does not have any separation. 

I see psychedelics as a powerful tool to expand one's consciousness. Imagine going from the conscious level of a mouse to that of a human. Psychedelics can greatly expand human consciousness beyond the ordinary state. Psychedelics can also produce whacky nonsense and I don't think they are effective for a mind-body until that mind-body has reached a certain conscious level. In particular, I think the mind-body needs to develop a grounded "observer + object" stage. If not, the psychedelic trip is often recontextualized in a way that is counter-productive to consciousness expansion. 

I would consider both sober experiences and psychedelic experiences to be enlightenment, since there is no escape from enlightenment.

2 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

The same goes for neuroscience and trauma. They can invent pills or whatever, yet the work still has to be done, awareness is just not gonna expand by external elements, or at least that's what I know.

I think trying to manipulate with pills is a contracted view that is counter-productive. It is trying to isolate one component of an integrated system and manipulate that component. This is a highly limited view that does not consider the holistic view, including the energetic systems I mentioned above. If I was to develop research and treatment plans, I would only place about 5% of my resources in pill development and usage - and this would only be temporary to help allow more holistic healing. 95% of my focus would be outside of pills and medication. There are much richer and more productive areas to explore.

Neuroscience is associated with pills and medications, yet it is beyond that. The strength of neuroscience is observation of the physical realm and how the nonphysical impacts the physical. For example, FMRIs and EEG brain scans can help us develop treatment plans for a person. A person could consider both their subjective experience of meditation, yoga, reiki etc. with brain scans revealing physical activity. I think a major deterrent in progress is separation. I see so many divided camps. There are the neuroscientists, reiki masters, yogis, exercise enthusiasts, psychologists etc that are all in their own camps defending their own views. It is all inter-related. It is holistic. Imagine a Reiki master of energetic systems that is also a neuroscience master. She does Reiki and uses real time feedback of intuition, empathy, energetic sensations and EEG feedback. Or a healer that integrates psychotherapy, Reiki, yoga, mediation and brain scans. Whatever tool is appropriate, or a combination of tools. I think it's a deterrent to categorize things as this and that and insist that my tool is better than yours. It's like a carpenter that will only use a hammer and is anti-screwdriver. Its absurd.

2 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

Doesn't all of that stem from lack of awareness? Isn't awareness a universal quality?

There is awareness that my mind-body is being chased by an aggressive dog. There is awareness that the mind-body is running. There is awareness that the mind-body is experiencing stress and panic.

Awareness does not remove the sensations of what is occurring in the mind-body. The mind-body is still running and experiencing stress and terror. Quite often, higher level awareness can help relax the mind-body and help dissolve anxiety, yet not necessarily. At a trans-personal level, there is an unconditional peace and stillness in that higher-order awareness. Yet that is independent of the mind-body sensations. The mind-body could be experiencing relaxation, joy or terror and that higher-order stillness is present. Yet, that is not what I am referring to as trauma. I am using the term trauma in both a metaphysical and mind-body context. There is a still presence even if the body is undergoing trauma. One could make a distinction here and say from a trans-personal level that the suffering of trauma is not real, yet the mind-body pain of trauma is real.

2 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

And by the way, why aren't you considering extreme joy as a sort of trauma? It could also affect the brain and get stuck in memory.

What is trauma exactly but a thought?

Again, we are using relative terms. Sure, if we remove distinctions then joy and trauma is transcended. And so is love, anger, frustration - whatever. To me, that is a different conversation above the human level. An interesting one yet different. 

It seems here we are talking at the human level of consciousness of experience. I would say acute trauma is an integrated experience of thought, feelings and energetics. I don't think one can reduce it to thought. I knew an 8 yr. old boy that was forced to watch his mother being brutally stabbed to death by his father. At the human level, that experience had widespread effects on that child - including memories and thoughts. Yet, not limited to that. His whole limbic system and HPA system was altered. His energetic systems of intuition and empathy were altered. I could feel it just being around him. Even if he wasn't thinking about memories of the event. You could remove the thoughts and memories and there would still be after effects.

2 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

I went right through to the heart of the issue, which is lack of awareness (within) (notice that I didn't reject the without), while you insist that the problem and solution could be without and within (and sometimes without the within).

I don't see it in these dualistic terms. I don't think one can separate a within and a without. They are an integrated whole.

I think higher-order awareness is very helpful for the mind-body, yet the stillness of higher-order awareness does not necessarily relieve the mind-body of the experience. If a mind-body was being beaten, would trans-personal awareness remove the pain of the mind-body?

2 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

I have overcome a very deep depression that had lasted over 7 years, and I have suffered through a war that had lasted over 6 years, and I'm still struggling with the consequences of the war, which hadn't ended yet in other parts of my country, I had overcome a strong OCD that had lasted over 5 years, so I think I know a lot about trauma.

 This is at the human level. At a trans-human level there is a still presence that transcends the mind-body experience yet does not eliminate the mind-body experience. This awareness can be help alleviate symptoms of the mind-body, yet not necessarily. One mentality I see over and over is that there is some thing called "enlightenment" that will remove one's ills. Panic, depression etc. The One Everything/Nothing includes everything. The idea that there is a thing called enlightenment that will relieve one's experience of pain is highly dualistic and at the level of the personality. The trans-human level includes the human mind-body and beyond. It doesn't care about the wants and needs of the self. That energetic motivation is at the level of the self. At the trans-human level of consciousness it doesn't matter if the mind-body is experiencing joy, pain, love, terror or whatever. It is an unconditional freedom. 

When you say you overcame OCD, that is at the human level. When you say "OCD" I am assuming you are referring to mental and physical symptoms commonly called "OCD". The physiological symptoms of OCD dissolved. Yet that has nothing to do with the trans-human level of consciousness. With that said, I think it is very important to have a healthy mind-body at the human level - that includes the dissolution of sensations such as OCD, depression, panic etc. The trans-personal level of awareness can help immensely with alleviating the symptoms of various neurosis. Yet I would not agree to the statement that neuroses are not real at the human level. This level is highly subjective. Right now, my mind-body is experiencing neck and shoulder pain. There is a higher-order awareness of this pain that is detached from the pain and does not identify with the pain. Yet, the pain is still present. From your perspective, are you saying the pain in my shoulder's and neck is not real?

 I think awareness can help relieve blockages and many neuroses, yet there are also structural problems. Awareness of leg paralysis won’t do much to restore leg functionality.

2 hours ago, Truth Addict said:

As for this:

Don't worry about me, I can handle criticism, be 100% comfortable with criticising me, because I am interested in growing myself.

I hope my communication was clear, I'm sorry if it wasn't, because I'm not a native speaker, and I'm struggling to communicate my ideas online.

Thank you. My mind is highly in tune with psychological dynamics and likes to deconstruct psychological dynamics. I try to do it in an impersonal way. Yet, it can often come across as overly-assertive and personal. It is not my intention, yet often the impact. It is something I am working on to be a more effective communicator.  I appreciate your openness.

Your English is excellent as a second language. These types of conversations can be highly abstract and nuanced. They are at an a very advanced language level. I speak Spanish at an upper intermediate level and there is no way I could come close to having this type of conversation in Spanish. 

Your ideas regarding trauma has led me to contemplate this and gain some greater clarity. For that, I thank you.

[Truth Addict]

@Serotoninluv

I agree ?

Thank you for the time and energy you put in responding to me, and thank you for the information you provided here.

What I mean by "trauma" and "real" is this:

Trauma is what you think is trauma.

Real is what you think is real.

My take on your view of trauma is that you already consider it "real" and that it includes material and immaterial etc... But I would have to ask again: what is material or immaterial but a thought? For that reason, anything I say won't penetrate, because we are already speaking different categories.

Of course, scientifically, you are probably right.

But I am talking about direct experience, and only direct experience. Which I told you, I believe it applies to all people.

As for the definition of enlightenment, we're having the same problem, and I'd say: Enlightenmet does not exist, enlightenment is what you think is enlightenment.

Kind of out of topic question: what do you do for a living? Because if it's neuroscience-related, then I think it might affect our communication here. The ego clings to being right about what serves its survival.

Now, I understand that you are trying to say that trauma is not merely thoughts, and that it could be present as a "physical illness" like unrelaxed sensation and something like that, and I agree with that to a certain degree.

But how do neuroscience information help someone on an online forum?

I'm just trying to be practical, and I think that kind of neuroscience theory would not be of much help here.

I'm not saying one should abandon the studies on healing or anything like that.

I think what we were in disagreement about is that whether trauma can be manifested in a physical form or not. And I agree with you, it certainly can. The question is: do you agree with me that healing won't be permanent without "the actual work"? And that any outside solution is only symptomatic, and it will not solve the root issue, or at least it will not prevent it from relapsing. Whereas "the actual work" guarantees protection, that's my experience.

I think it all boils down to the previous extract.

Thank you again, I was going to respond to everything you said, but it's exhausting and it takes a lot of time to respond to all that, because you know, not a native speaker.

Edited March 14, 2019 by Truth Addict