Enlightenment: Is There an End Game?

[legendary]

On 3/7/2019 at 11:17 AM, Markus said:

Bliss, a being, all that can not be absolute. Whereas how I see it, the path to enlightenment is a journey within mind until mind gives way to what's beyond.

Here you  have it, straight from the horse's mouth:

I do not, in any shape or form endorse Jan's assertions. I'm merely trying to come at this from an inquisitive stage yellow mind.

On 3/6/2019 at 11:23 PM, AstralProjection said:

Look at the ascended angels they are not nothing, they work through the power of God.

As Jan explains, these angels (I have never experienced them) are manifestations of the dynamic creative potential of the Absolute Unmanifest God. So they are Nothing! It's just that the traditional interpretation of the word nothing doesn't do justice.

[legendary]

3 hours ago, AlwaysBeNice said:

No, it's true, it refers to the first period after his breakthrough.

 

Alright, fair enough

3 hours ago, AlwaysBeNice said:

'Reincarnation exists only so long as there is ignorance. There is really no reincarnation at all, either now or before. Nor will there be any hereafter. This is the truth.'

Love that!

3 hours ago, AlwaysBeNice said:

So you are done, but you might not know it. Yet speaking of being done for external admiration, is the opposite of being done.

Good point

[Markus]

1 hour ago, legendary said:

 

 

As Jan explains, these angels (I have never experienced them) are manifestations of the dynamic creative potential of the Absolute Unmanifest God. So they are Nothing! It's just that the traditional interpretation of the word nothing doesn't do justice.

I never had experiences of beings or other fancy stuff, but some of my acquaintances did. The people who experienced beings, entities, colours and had crazy experiences in response to different energies were more unstable and had a turbulent time on the path. They would freak out and be badly affected by certain things and people.

One commonality between them was history of psych use (especially a lot in a short window) as well as practices supposedly focused on different energies. I think certain energetic events destabilize people and give rise to extreme experiences. All such things are ultimately cognitions of the mind and reflect the state of the mind. The experience can be extremely alluring, kind of like drugs, that while possibly feeling incredible, are a distraction from real growth.

Spiritual growth should as a big-picture trend calm the mind and emotional fluctuations of either negative or positive excitement. Things become more subtle, less fancy and exciting. Anything that causes big fluctuations and overwhelmingly pleasurable states is something to watch out for.

Edited March 8, 2019 by Markus

[legendary]

20 hours ago, Markus said:

The people who experienced beings, entities, colours and had crazy experiences in response to different energies were more unstable and had a turbulent time on the path. They would freak out and be badly affected by certain things and people.

Interesting. People who have written about levels of consciousness in humans (e.g. David Hawkins) put paranormal abilities at a lower level than full enlightenment. So I understand how people might start experiencing 'crazy' phenomenon without grounding it in the Absolute and freak out as a result.

21 hours ago, Markus said:

Spiritual growth should as a big-picture trend calm the mind and emotional fluctuations of either negative or positive excitement. Things become more subtle, less fancy and exciting. Anything that causes big fluctuations and overwhelmingly pleasurable states is something to watch out for.

True. As spiritual teachers advocate: Work towards enlightenment. If paranormal abilities present themselves, let them, but don't let that be a hindrance/distraction.

Owing to the limit of interpersonal communication, we won't be able to conclude if this bliss that Jan experiences is fundamentally different from a state that lies in the domain of experience. The only way to verify is do the practices and see if you experience it yourself. And even after that, others might not believe you. #black_hole_effect

 

[Markus]

1 hour ago, legendary said:

 

Owing to the limit of interpersonal communication, we won't be able to conclude if this bliss that Jan experiences is fundamentally different from a state that lies in the domain of experience. The only way to verify is do the practices and see if you experience it yourself. And even after that, others might not believe you. #black_hole_effect

 

The bliss Jan talks with regard to the God consciousness stage is definitely an extreme experience, a sort of high. There's another Kundalini guy called Harri Aalto who was unable to function for several years (while his wife took care of him) due to bliss. I personally got some experiences of bliss a few days after I got shaktipat (one the in absentia and once a retreat), it felt quite similar to the kind of bliss I had on LSD. Dropped the practices soon so kundalini symptoms and bliss went away as well.

[legendary]

18 hours ago, Markus said:

The bliss Jan talks with regard to the God consciousness stage is definitely an extreme experience, a sort of high.

I wouldn't be so quick to jump to conclusions.

From his book, Lovebliss:

Lovebliss is not a state of consciousness or an experience, although it will seem so in the beginning when you only receive it in glimpses. In the beginning, because you think of it as a state of consciousness or an inflow, you will think in terms of change. “How to change your consciousness from one state to the state of Lovebliss.” But the truth is, Lovebliss is not a state. It is the nature of Pure Being, the Self. No matter how much you change consciousness, you will not get it that way. You have to transcend all states of consciousness entirely.

It's the Ananda part of Satchitananda, if you will. Again, I'm trying to practice open-minded skepticism here.

[Markus]

40 minutes ago, legendary said:

I wouldn't be so quick to jump to conclusions.

From his book, Lovebliss:

Lovebliss is not a state of consciousness or an experience, although it will seem so in the beginning when you only receive it in glimpses. In the beginning, because you think of it as a state of consciousness or an inflow, you will think in terms of change. “How to change your consciousness from one state to the state of Lovebliss.” But the truth is, Lovebliss is not a state. It is the nature of Pure Being, the Self. No matter how much you change consciousness, you will not get it that way. You have to transcend all states of consciousness entirely.

It's the Ananda part of Satchitananda, if you will. Again, I'm trying to practice open-minded skepticism here.

This is one of the pitfalls with many teachers as well as people who listen to them. Taking states of consciousness for Truth/the self. Just because they are abiding doesn't make them any less of a state. If you used to not be in it, it is a state. This goes for all types of bliss, as well as emptiness.

The mere fact that different teachers and gurus are not in the same state. Some experience just emptiness. Some experience bliss and emptiness. Some experience God. And with different depth/clarity. They don't use different terms just because of their personality or emphasis, they use different terms because they don't experience the same thing. An experience or state being subtle or incomprehensible, impossible to put into words and explain to someone doesn't make it "beyond experience" or "truth". People see it that way for lack of reference. Whereas if you cycled again and again in and out of different seemingly absolute and "beyond experience" states, it'd become clear none of them can be IT.

[legendary]

6 hours ago, Markus said:

Whereas if you cycled again and again in and out of different seemingly absolute and "beyond experience" states, it'd become clear none of them can be IT.

I'm not qualified enough to comment on this. And we're way off topic here. This was never about Jan.

The original question was about Liberation. And honestly, looking back at it, the concern about liberation/mukti arose from my dualistic and deluded point of view.

Based on the feedback from everyone, here are my inferences:

On 3/7/2019 at 2:27 PM, winterknight said:

True that nothing is done, but then it is also the case that nothing began. When realization is 'done,' it is also the realization that there is no one for whom it is done. Nothing may be done, but there is also no one to do anything further.

On 3/6/2019 at 9:25 PM, Nahm said:

Relatively speaking, if you resolve your karma / reduce your entropy - that is liberation. One can ‘serve’ regardless of where they’re at with this, and imo being of service is perhaps the best path to resolving / karma.

On 3/6/2019 at 9:25 PM, Nahm said:

Absolutely speaking, there is no liberation, nor entropy, karma, or possibility of serving. And again, no “other reality”. 

On 3/8/2019 at 5:30 PM, AlwaysBeNice said:

'Reincarnation exists only so long as there is ignorance. There is really no reincarnation at all, either now or before. Nor will there be any hereafter. This is the truth.'

So you are done, but you might not know it. Yet speaking of being done for external admiration, is the opposite of being done.

Of course, everyone is welcome to draw their own conclusions.

Cheers

[Markus]

9 minutes ago, legendary said:

I'm not qualified enough to comment on this. And we're way off topic here. This was never about Jan.

Yea, I wasn't intending to keep it to any particular topic but rather address what I found relevant. Though thinking of it, I think the matter of people having different experiences they consider absolute is an important thing to consider when discussing if there is an endgame and what it might be.

[Will Bigger]

@legendary

I don't think it's for us to know whether there truly is a "perfect and complete liberation." at best, we can see there is no self, no world, and find a deep contentment in that. but who's to say what comes "next"? after all, all this experience is already happening without a self or a world.

[legendary]

On 3/10/2019 at 10:47 PM, Markus said:

I think the matter of people having different experiences they consider absolute is an important thing to consider when discussing if there is an endgame and what it might be.

That's a good point. Although I think judging other people's experiences can be a slippery slope, especially given the mind's tenancy to self-deceive and bullshit.

3 hours ago, Will Bigger said:

@legendary

I don't think it's for us to know whether there truly is a "perfect and complete liberation." at best, we can see there is no self, no world, and find a deep contentment in that. but who's to say what comes "next"?

I agree with you. And most of us (at least I) have a long way to go before we transcend the Ox and the Self, so it's best to keep our heads down and do the practices.  

[Shin]

3 minutes ago, legendary said:

 

I agree with you. And most of us (at least I) have a long way to go before we transcend the Ox and the Self, so it's best to keep our heads down and do the practices.  

 

What if this is a trick from the self to keep you unconscious ?

[legendary]

3 hours ago, Shin said:

What if this is a trick from the self to keep you unconscious ?

I hope the practices will show me that. At least for now, I'm not able to get to the realisation that I had during the 5-MeO trip through any other means.

 

 

 

 

[legendary]

Interesting take on this by Rupert Spira

 

[FoxFoxFox]

Consciousness is constantly evolving. Bondage exists only at one level of consciousness - when time and matter collide. Liberation occurs when one finally goes past that level, which happens when you finally lets go of the "I am-the-body" idea.